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[Mizhara]

Today is painful. Wounds are opening again. This time we don't have any immediate crisis or immediate work that has to be done. All we have are the vulnerable spots in our armor and the memories of last year. Nothing to protect us from the anger, sorrow and pain. It's kind of good, though. It's another release. A lancing of a boil that's been festering since 22nd of July. A chance to repeat that unbelievably strong reaction from an entire country. A reaction of peace and love, to an unbelievable action of hate and murder.

A bit before eight in the morning, a white armored truck goes from Ila prison. It drives to Oslo courthouse protected by the police. Everyone going to or from work along this road the next few weeks might meet this armored white truck. The murderer on his way to court.

For the next ten weeks this'll be the norm. While the trial is going on, he will be in more contact with society than he's been since the 22nd of July last year. And for that matter, more than he'll be after it's done. The real tragedy is that he killed for this window. In his head this is a way to market a manifesto and ideology that he with absolutely no insight calls "value conservative".

We're going to have to listen to this shit until Sankt Hans. (A Norwegian summer holiday.)

Four shrinks came early. They're sentral, right in front of the judges' table. They're here to assess the real uncertain part of the case: Whether or not he's to be considered liable for his actions. The man is sick. He's yet to show even a hint or capacity for empathy with victims and their loved ones. These failings and personality disorders don't necessarily mean he's not capable of distinguishing right from wrong, though. He's liable.

He enters. As soon as the handcuffs are off, he performs his right-wing extremist salute. Right hand hits the chest before he stretches it out with a closed fist. He's gotten declarations of support in jail.

Those are the confused and aggressive sympathizers he wants to communicate with.

He doesn't recognize the court. In his world it doesn't have a legitimate right to convict him. He's not unemployed either. He's a 'writer'. His voice is flat, unaffected. Contrasts quite a bit to the contents of the charges the prosecutor is reading.

It's a story about a planned and systematic mass murder. Every one of the short descriptions of a death and cause thereof can't in any way hold the pain, grief and loss his actions have forced on the victims and those left behind. He listens to the words without visible reactions. Just a twitch of the lips once in a while. He doesn't recognize the right of the court, but he certainly feels he had the right to afflict all of these people life-long pain and sorrow.

There's no reason to believe this trial will make him understand what he's actually done. During the several hour long list of murders you realize exactly that: what may be the most painful part of this trial is his incapacity to understand. He doesn't seem to be able to understand what he does to others. His world ends at the tip of his nose.

The only real meaning to this trial is how it confirms yet again that we are a just society. Our society's values will not budge under this man's brutality. We will give him correct and right treatment by a humane justice ideology. Not in the hopes that he'll ever understand anything, but because those are the values the dead and their loved ones stood and stands for.

It's pointless to think he can understand this, but that is what gives this trial meaning.

That... and the fact that his name will be forgotten.

[BloodBird]

So today starts a 10-week long process that frankly, the man in question don't deserve nor respect. But your 100% right on this; It's not just for him. It's for us. I'll be interested to see how the coming days play out.

Thank you also for your long. It led me to this, a documentary that I had missed the first time it rolled out. I don't watch TV, so I didn't catch it.

English text is available in it.

[Victoria Stecker]

Saw an article on this this morning, really can't put into words the feeling. Today is the 5-year anniversary of the Virginia Tech shooting, which is my hometown. We didn't have the opportunity to give any sort of justice there, the shooter killed himself.

... really don't have anything to say, or perhaps just lack the words to say it.

Ugh.

[Seriphyn]

As an inhabitant of an often unreasonably cynical country, just like to pass my comments that it's encouraging your populace can come together in solidarity and unity over such an incident. I can't really say the same for the United "ooo bloody weather/immigrants/tories" Kingdom. At least that's one thing positive that came over what happened, I suppose...

[BloodBird]

Seventy-seven lives, actually.

Did you consider in any way how offensive your post would be, Vikarion? Or how redundant it is?

Most of us have already considered what you say here. Some pointers are highly exaggerated, but most are annoying realities.

No, he will not be released after some 15-16 years for good behavior, or whatever. He will remain in jail for the maximum penalty, I've no doubt at all about that. 2.1 decades. Not his whole life, but it's a start.

Will he ever walk the streets again? No. The rule of law we hold dear here don't much care to let him walk free to be beaten to death by an angry mob. Our self-righteous egos would never handle something that barbaric and cruel, so he won't get the chance to die at the hands of the hate-filled mob. Not because we care for his life, not for his benefit - for our benefit.

You point out how soft our prisons are as if we are not all fully aware. Few if any will like it, (outside of the jailed themselves, of course) but that's how it is. Deal with it. We have to.
Breivik won't get to see much of his own prison on that wonderful flat-screen of his. We don't have a tendency to make shows about our prisons. Ergo, anything he sees on it will be a reminder of what he has forever lost. Anywhere he goes will not be anywhere outside his polished, gold-trimmed bars. He will be trapped in a fluffy cage, forever knowing his comforts will keep him in health to live a long, boring, uneventful and irrelevant life.

When he die in his bed it won't be in his house.

I for one don't like this. I'd love for our jails to be less... accommodating. But they are as they are, and nothing I do changes that. I'll make do with what I can. But when I think of it, this is suitable punishment. No amount of discomfort will return our dead, heal our wounds or repair the broken lives. We can't torture our fallen back to life, nor can we kill to return the joys of life. But we can flip him a finger and march on as we have, offering him a level of civilized conduct not seen many other places - like any other criminal. Kindly tell me why we should bend our own rules or break our own principles for this man? Why is he a special case?

His victims will not be forgotten anytime soon. That you can be very sure of. Nor will the events. The man himself however will fade away, quietly, his name as well as his body. 50-70 years from now the victims of the worst atrocity since WWII will endure - their actions, ideals and examples living on in the hearts and minds of the people and in the annals of the largest political party in the nation. The man behind it will hardly be spoken of with any detail at all. We don't glorify or martyr our worst offenders.

The poisonous spider and harmful bacteria has one thing in common - they are both mindless natural events. They can't help be poisonous or harmful, but they still are, so we deal with them. If we could ask the spider to go away and it was inclined to obey, we might try that. Less stains to wash away. Breivik was not a harmful bacteria. He was a man with a plan who knew exactly what he did, what it would do, and he did it anyway. He will be treated no better, and no worse, than any other dangerous human criminal. Dangerous human criminals go to jail. Dangerous poison spiders are crushed.

This IS Justice. Our justice. Odds are the near 5-million people in this nation has over 5 million ideas for a more elaborate or fitting punishment but it won't do. The man is not special, or in any way an exception. He is merely a mass-murderer, and those go to jail. We will all deal with it however we want, however we can. Because while you believe in and perhaps want a darwinian world, we want something better and more civilized. That includes cuddling our prisoners to death.

*EDIT* [Clarification] This was a reply to a post that's now banned.

I do wonder for a bit (and await) the removal of this reply as well, I think. Should likely have reported the post not responded, but I felt like addressing the concerns stated, even if delivery could have been so much better...

[Mizhara]

I was going to respond to Vikarion, but I'm frankly too disgusted. It's like hearing the killer and the rest of his right-wing extremist buddies.

Do you have even the slightest idea how badly you are spitting on the values and views of the very people who died at his hands?

EDIT: The post this post refers to is no longer around.

[BloodBird]

I think he knows. That's the most offensive part, honestly.

The rest are essentially frustrations with the system and as such are in many ways understandable. However, he tone and manner of addressing the issues, could be far better.

[Chell Charon]

Imprisonment is a punishment on a mans freedom of movement. With associated limitations to other freedoms as is needed to enforce the punishment.

Nordic countries have one of the best rates of rehabilitation of criminals. Lowest numbers of repeat offenders. This is because of the 'cuddling' and due to an understanding that torturing people for x years and then releasing them to society when their sentence is done hurts society a lot more.

Value of societys laws and convictions is not measured in how it treats those it likes. It is measured in how we treat those we hate.

Norway and norwegians are showing us that they measure up as a civilized society very well. I can only hope that us in Finland will never be measured in this manner and that if we are we will be able to measure up as well.

[Desiderya]

The only real meaning to this trial is how it confirms yet again that we are a just society. Our society's values will not budge under this man's brutality. We will give him correct and right treatment by a humane justice ideology. Not in the hopes that he'll ever understand anything, but because those are the values the dead and their loved ones stood and stands for.

This is, in my opinion, the key part. The tricky thing about ideals is sticking with them even when it hurts. The 'soft' norwegian prisons are there for a reason, and overthrowing that concept in the face of one inconceivably misguided deed would be a shame, since that approach does not seem to be wrong - with norway having a very low rate of crime, especially violent crime.

Besides, even if he gets the 21 year sentence ( and not a spot in a mental ward ) and walks free afterwards - you can bet that his life won't be easier.

[orange]

What may or may not work in 'MURICA will work everywhere else, I'm sure.

You do realize that the United States of America has more than 50 justice systems each with their own nuances to them and that in cases like this the guilty may receive anywhere from a life sentance, to several, to the death penalty

[Seriphyn]

What may or may not work in 'MURICA will work everywhere else, I'm sure.

You do realize that the United States of America has more than 50 justice systems each with their own nuances to them and that in cases like this the guilty may receive anywhere from a life sentance, to several, to the death penalty

That was in response to Vikarion's post, which is no longer present.

[Morwen Lagann]

I didn't remove your post because it's a good point whether it was in response to moderated content or not. So is orange's response to you, for that matter.

Individual cultures and societies determine what is "justice" for them. What is just to one group is not necessarily so to another, and it's important to remember and respect that.

I don't personally think that coddling criminals is the best way to rehabilitate them (prison should be a punishment, it shouldn't be a more comfortable life than what a free citizen has, etc. - not going to get into it in detail), but if it works for Norway, good for them. At least their system works. I can't really say the same for our own.

[Desiderya]

"Coddling criminals" is putting it a bit extreme, in my opinion. Breivik's deed is extreme beyond the measure a justice system usually deals with, but even then I highly suspect he won't get into the most comfiest prison the country has available, which will still be treating him like a human being and not an animal, but these are the idealistic differences and, as I've said above, these are tough to deal with in these circumstances.
On the other hand, I highly doubt Breivik will find much companionship with his fellow inmates, even more so in a society that doesn't treat criminals like the most devious outcasts.

[Tiberious Thessalonia]

It's worthwhile to note that not only will he be serving the 21 years maximum sentence, but Norway also has a legal principle that I forget the exact name of, that essentially means when those 21 years are up, he will go up for review.  If he is found to still present a danger, or still be unremorseful of his crime, he will go to jail for another 5 years.  After those 5 years are up, another review.  Another 5 years.

Unless he actually does reform, he will likely never get out of jail, and they will have done it without making him a martyr for other extremist elements in the country.  They will just have effectively shut him up, made him irrelevant, and kept him away from the people who could do him harm.

Seems like a good deal to me.

[Jev North]

It's called forvaring, or "containment." See http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_imprisonment_in_Norway. Notably, it'd mean his case would begin coming up for review after only ten years. I'd say it's unlikely he'll no longer be considered a danger to society in any length of time, barring miraculous recovery or new treatments for whatever mis-wiring he's got, though.