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[Lyn Farel]

Hope that none of you is affected by this. :/

It's a national tradgedy, the entire kingdom is affected in some way or another. But yes, I too hope none - either Norwegian or foreign - who frequent these boards are directly affected personally or through friends or family.

I was just wishing this because it is more unusual to see that kind of things happening in western countries (not on that scale), though it happens from time to time and reminds me this is what is considered to be at best "worthy of note" in third world regions were it is merely the routine. I hope we will start to consider the same when it is about poor countries where it is considered to be a "normal thing".

People tend to react with good heart because it is happening near them in their own lives and they feel threatened/disgusted, but this is quite hypocritical for me, even if it is unconscious. Sorry if I am being harsh though, it does not mean I am not feeling deeply for the people dead here.

It's been confirmed. The fellow behind the attacks is a right-wing extremist and Christian, which I found grimly amusing.

I can also confirm, this is not going to do much beyond lightly anger most of us. We're still far more likely to be hit by a car or fall down the stairs and break our necks than see action like this happen, and those who weren't afraid last week won't be afraid next week. I've been in contact with current and former colleagues across the country, and the mood is in general just grim anger and there's an air of 'well, let's buck up and get to work...' thing going.

Politically, this won't change anything but for the better. If anything, it'll further strengthen the attitude towards peace efforts and such.

This is Norway. We are a small nation and there's not many of us... but we're hard people. Takes hell of a lot more than this to change us.

^
This, mostly. Crap like this ofthen have the effect of cementing the national relationship everyone in the affected nation has - it affects everyone, and thus everyone stands together to weather the storm, metaphorically speaking. This would likely have been the case no-matter what nation it affected. I think much like Miz here, the changes from this, if any wider changes make themselves known in time, are highly likely to be for the better.

Perhaps we will even grasp some more spine and make a higher punishment-range for especially vile criminals. 21 years in our cuddly norwegian prisons simply is not sufficent for someone who plan for years, then murder nearly a hundred people in a deliberate act of terrorism.

It is a double blade sword. It will cement national feeling and sympathety to each other, provoke a feeling of disgust and awake people sensibilities, but it can also get dangerous and lead to the opposite extremism (think to 9/11 and what followed). Which is why you are right to mention that "fortunately" it was not a stranger who did that.

As for punishement strenghts, they do not work better nor are more justified when they are longer imo.

Right-wing extremist and Christian, eh?

Quite frequent to see religious people getting into right wing extremist parties from my own experience, always for traditionnalist/conservatist reasons, while on the other hand, selfless acts and sympathy come often from spirituality, in contrast of politics and dogmas.

[orange]

As for punishement strenghts, they do not work better nor are more justified when they are longer imo.

Punishment is an interesting thing.  It generally has little to do with actually punishing the actions of the perpetrator and more to do with deterring future possible perpetrators.

Looking at a lesser offense, how is theft/destruction of property punished (in general)?  Is the thief/destruction of property somehow made to repay what was stolen?  Is there something that should be added to this repayment as additional discouragement?  If we are unable to adequately address how to deal with lesser crimes dealing with property, how can we hope to reasonably deal with crimes involving another living person?

I do not think, we as a modern human civilization, have adequately looked at how we deal with crimes and come up with reasonable justice systems.  They are all inherited from history and various changes have been made based on modern sensibilities, but we have failed to actually evaluate our systems as and decide upon a method to actually administer justice versus administering punishment as a means of deterrent.

[BloodBird]

This will be the 3rd incarnation of this post, the previous ones deleted due to getting far to long-winded or as a whole becoming to hard to keep track of. Pridefully enough I don't think anyone of them were offensive or disruptive of these forum rules, this version will be no different.

Firstly, to Lyn Farel.

I understand what your saying, regarding 3rd world locations and atrocities like this happening frequently. The loss of human life – and non-fatal but still feel-able suffering - is, IMHO, always tragic. But because it is, I also know how the human mind works around that. If we all felt the LASTING emotional effect of every tragedy, at least the ones we hear of and see, the effect would be considerably more severe. Paradoxically, perhaps if we did hurting one-another might not come as easily. But I degrees.

Events that take place 'far away' or to 'others' easily get filtered out of our zone of caring, with time. It is sad, and shameful, but there are understandable, logical reasons for that, and we are all victims of it. I was sad for America and Americans after 9/11. I was sad for Spain and the Spanish after that terrorist train-crashing. I was sad for Russia and Russians after that school got kidnapped and stormed after days of suffering. I was sad for Thailand and the Thai people after the tsunami. I was sad for Japan and the Japanese people after the earthquake, tsunami and reactor melt-down recently. Whenever a report arrives about a hunger catastrophe and/or constant war and suffering in Africa, it dampens my spirits and I'm struck by the reality of it all happening.

But it wasn't until this terrorist bombing/shooting hitting 'my' nation and 'my' fellow Norwegians that I truly felt... hit, by all of it. And even this feeling is waning as I type this. None of my family and friends or their family etc. were involved, afaik. In a year, I will still remember this, but that feeling will have joined ranks with all the others; they matter only when I'm actually thinking about it.

Mizhara.

I agree with your assessments and arguments in general.

Our judicial system should never be about revenge or retribution for crimes. I don't think it is, I don't want it to be. But the purpose of our judicial system is thus; they provide consequences for failure to adhere to laws, laws instated primarily for everyone's collective benefits.

No, you don't get to drive like a maniac no matter how fun it is, this is harmful to those around you and yourself. If you speed, there are fines, possibly confiscation of your license.

No, you don't get to enjoy the freedom to kill whoever you want for whatever reason. The reasons are obvious to all but the most morally and mentally challenged.

Thus I believe that the system works; but besides the 'justice' of letting the victim(s) of your actions know you are punished for your crime, besides full-filling that request for 'revenge' jail or prison also serves to isolate dangerous people from the rest. People who murder, for instance, go to join not just to 'punish' them, but to remove them as dangers to society, and perhaps, when they get out, they won't be so careless with the lives of others again.

In Norway most senior citizens die at an age of 80-100 or so. 21 years is capital punishment. A dangerous person is locked away, at most a quarter of a life-time. That's not good enough, IMHO. Purely for the effort of safeguarding the rest, there should be the option of keeping extremely dangerous people away for the rest of their time.

I have held this opinion for years and likely will for the rest of my life. I don't think that you and I will agree on the need for life-time jail sentences in our country so, I will leave this as is. I don't want to argue this, especially not here. But I don't want my opinion to be miss-understood, either. Being this hypocritical is annoying, so I'll finish with 2 paragraphs.

While I do feel the call for 'justice' or 'revenge' for this, there is little that can be done to have 'eye for an eye' actions anyhow. How do you re-pay 92 dead and thousands robbed of important people in their lives - life-changing events - with one man's death or life-long imprisonment?

You don't. You can't, because it is impossible. But does that mean we should let him walk out of a prison in 2032-2033 to do whatever he wish again? No. Neither should we let out the one's who have killed 'only' one person deliberately. I do believe that in the ultimate interest of safeguarding our society from dangers like this mass-murderer, a far more permanent solution is needed. And this is my opinion whom I don't think you will share. I can respect that, Mizhara.

Now, I'll go write about something far more enjoyable...

[Seriphyn]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14265207

BBC seems to be covering it well...I can't really find the word to use to describe "good coverage" in light of the events that actually took place 

[Lyn Farel]

The question is generally not to let the guy walk out of jail after a certain amount of time, Bloodbird. Jail is a way, like you say, to keep dangerous people out of the society. It is to my opinion an outdated system that sometimes tends to be now like a temporary measure where the criminals can start to work to "repay", or at last, to work in a good way, if there is such a system in place (which is still quite rare, most prisons are crumbling under criminals that we just put there like garbage that we don't know how to get rid of it :/). Now that death sentence starts to get abolished in a lot of countries (because it has been proofed barbaric and unefficient, at the contrary, but this is still subject to debate even nowadays), the idea is to rehabilitate the prisonner to the life in society. It is ofc not always easy but some facilities exist to that end. Then, naturally, a psycho a mentally sick criminal will obviously go in a psychiatric centre. If he is released without any control in the society after having purged his sentence, which happens a lot because they are just dropped in prisons like garbage as i said above, then its pure folly, yes.

[Akrasjel Lanate]

One man job

[Mizhara]

One of the surviving young women from the island shooting said something I'd just like to share.

"If one man can hate so much, how much can't we all love, together?"

(Translated so may be slightly inaccurate, but the message is whole and intact.)
And now it's a national one minute of silence, so if you'll excuse me...

[Raze Valadeus]

Apparently a comment I made here was interpreted as being possibly insulting or flamebaiting to others, I apologize for giving that impression, it was not at all my intention.

Taking any ideal or belief to extremes tends to have negative results is essentially what I was trying to say.

I agree with the above statement as well. The hatred of one man should pale in comparison to the love of many.

[Aodha Khan]

Shocking...

And religion at centre of the trouble as usual. 

[Kaleigh Doyle]

I think you're missing the broader point, that violent nutcases will be violent regardless of the medium they claim to stand behind.

[Raze Valadeus]

I think you're missing the broader point, that violent nutcases will be violent regardless of the medium they claim to stand behind.

QFT

[Akrasjel Lanate]

Shocking...

And religion at centre of the trouble as usual. 

He is not a religius fanatic.

[Aodha Khan]

He is not a religius fanatic.

"Told the court that he committed the attacks in order to “save Norway and Western Europe” and accused the nation's leading Labour Party of bringing in a “mass import of Muslims.”

No, nothing to do with religion....

Having grown up in a country with deep lying religious divide I have to disagree that religion doesn't cause problems. The Bible and Koran are full of aggressive tone and language. Christianity and Islam has a long history of war and killing innocent people.

[Desiderya]

More precise would be that modern/moderate religion requests acceptance and tolerance, a state in which fundamentalist groups can prosper. I wouldn't dwell on the crusades and such, since there are obviously a lots of wars without religious reasoning. What strikes me most about religion is how logical the arguments to do both atrocities and boons are when you stay into the respective belief-system.

But, well, let's get back to the topic.
I hope the norwegians won't change their liberalism and way of life due to this person. The outcry for more severe punishments and so on is understandable, but won't help to prevent such deeds. And it would just be one of the things he wanted: Change the current system.

In germany we face the instant reflex: "We totally need more [Big Brother] now, because something like this is possible here, too!" The tasteless and expected outcry from the usual suspects.
Quoted from the speaker of homeland affairs from the governing party: "The truth is that this deed was born on the internet. [...] We are agreed that we must continue to surveil the internet [...]."

[Myyona]

He is not a religius fanatic.

"Told the court that he committed the attacks in order to “save Norway and Western Europe” and accused the nation's leading Labour Party of bringing in a “mass import of Muslims.”

No, nothing to do with religion....

Having grown up in a country with deep lying religious divide I have to disagree that religion doesn't cause problems. The Bible and Koran are full of aggressive tone and language. Christianity and Islam has a long history of war and killing innocent people.

I guess that shows more about your society than ours (I am a Scandinavian too). By far the most people here who carry negative sentiments against Muslims have little to no affiliation with any kind of religion themselves.

I am noting how this tragedy is being morphed by different countries to fit their issues, though, while close, are not exactly the same. Like here in Denmark, nobody puts any merit to the guy making a note about being Christian; it is ends up being all about politics. Right versus left, like the political spectrum is one dimensional as that.

It all detracts from the primary reasons why killings happened; the guy is a clinical classified psychopath. At least, after reading his "manifest", that is what I put my money on being the conclusion. Why he ended up like that have possible roots in upbringing, difficulties in close social interactions and maybe a physical defect. Something much closer to shaping your identity than hearing a few words here and there from people not close to you.  Of course, his selection of targets might possibly be slightly inspired by a talk somebody gave, but the twisting of periphery motivators into being primary is utterly disgusting and makes me fear nobody will learn anything from this.

Though, I have faith in the Norwegians; they are a good people and will overcome.