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[Nmaro Makari]

Any Matari out there, Republic loyalists or not, consider the following questions:

1) Currently, the Starkmanir, Thukker and Nefantar (formerly the Ammatars) are outside the Republic. Should they be re-intergrated?

2) Does it matter that a significant amount of Starkmanir follow many Amarrian customs, some even worshipping their God?

3) What about Nefantar who were former slave-holders?

4) What would is your vision of what the Republic should be?

N'maro, as some of you will know from talking to him IC, is very much a Tribal Unionist.

His view is that all the Tribes should be a member of the Republic, also that the Republic should remain respectful of tribal traditions, and that reconciliation is possible and should be worked towards. In this he may be slightly naive, as he is willing to allow the Starkmanir absolute freedom of religion, the Thukker to continue with thier traditions, and forgive any Nefantar who previously held slaves. He belives that all Tribes are inextricably linked by belief in self-determination and independence, as well as a firey resilience and determination.

In short, he believes that all Matari should look after each other, and that divided, the Tribes may be lost to eternity.

P.s. I know this topic will be hampered slightly by the fact that CCP hasnt thrown us a bone in 2 years (7 expansions for those who are counting), but I'm still curious about peoples views on the subject.

[Seriphyn]

You been poking around the archived news items? Lots of answers to your questions there.

Also would be worth nothing that Nefantar, Starkmanir and Thukker are considered as "Tribes of the Republic" now, but there's lots of them outside still it sounds like.

[Nmaro Makari]

You been poking around the archived news items? Lots of answers to your questions there.

Also would be worth nothing that Nefantar, Starkmanir and Thukker are considered as "Tribes of the Republic" now, but there's lots of them outside still it sounds like.

If you could link some of this archived news that would be great because CCP have ABANDONED MEEE! D:

In any case, from what I understand, the three tribes, and the Elders (big ??? over the game) mostly still live in the great wildlands.

[Nmaro Makari]

Also, any non-minnies feel free to comment!

Also, anyone know anything about the Elders? Apart from how mysterious they are.

[scagga]

You been poking around the archived news items? Lots of answers to your questions there.

Also would be worth nothing that Nefantar, Starkmanir and Thukker are considered as "Tribes of the Republic" now, but there's lots of them outside still it sounds like.

Only a subset of Nefantar are part of the republic, by fleeing the to rebellious heathens during the elder strike.  The majority remain loyal servants of the empire/mandate.  The relatives of those who fled might be being persecuted, justly of course.

[Mizhara]

1) Currently, the Starkmanir, Thukker and Nefantar (formerly the Ammatars) are outside the Republic. Should they be re-intergrated?

There seems to be this silly notion that the Republic is somehow the main body of Matari. Should they be integrated into a Tribal Assembly? Certainly, if they wish to be part of the unified Tribes. The Republic? Not so much. However, it'd require losing a lot of dead weight, i.e. the Ammatar needs to get rid of the faith and so on.

2) Does it matter that a significant amount of Starkmanir follow many Amarrian customs, some even worshipping their God?

It matters immensely. Being Matari means more than blood and genetics. It's culture and faith as well, which does not include the Amarrian faith. And far more importantly, the Amarrian faith is what justified seven hundred years of slavery to begin with, so it's understandably not something that should or would be welcome within the Tribes.

3) What about Nefantar who were former slave-holders?

Highly individual. Are they renouncing it truthfully and embracing the Tribes? If so, they should be allowed to at least try. Are they just doing it to pay lip-service? Kill them.

4) What would is your vision of what the Republic should be?

A pile of ash. Get rid of that Gallente attempt at enslaving the Matari through political and cultural dominance, and create something uniquely Matari instead. However, that will be a project that would have to start later. Not now, when the inherent weaknesses in tearing something down could spell doom. It'll have to wait until the Amarrian threat is dealt with.


Miz is very much a Tribalist, but has absolutely no patience with a Republic she views as having abandoned and betrayed her own people. (The slaves still held by the Amarr) She has no acceptance of Ammatar or anyone else working for the Empire, or pro-slaver people. Shakor was to her a step in the right direction, the Elders even more so, but neither of them finished the job and created what they had to. She is very much for unity among the Tribes, as she's convinced that a unified front from the Tribes would allow for forcing the Empire to do something stupid enough that they'd expose themselves as the threat they are.

She does, however, have great respect for  the Thukkers and their decision to be part of the Tribal Assembly on paper only, and in practicality being separate. Those who ran off to the Federation to live there, however, she has almost no respect for as they've chosen to no longer be of the Tribes and share in the hardships and work required to rise from the ruins.

[Matariki Rain]

The setting for this short play sums up the situation:

The scene is a bar in the Great Wildlands, at the outskirts of Minmatar space. It is very late at night.

A recent war in New Eden has spurred the three lost Minmatar tribes to return home. The Thukkers, wanderers of space, have been invited to rejoin the Republic, and are preparing for their section of space to become an autonomous part of the Minmatar collective. The Nefantar, also known as the Ammatars, who were thought to have been traitors against their own people in an older war, were revealed as protectors and invited back after their homeworld was ravaged. The Starkmanir, once thought extinct but kept alive through the good grace of the Nefantar, were rescued and offered to rejoin their people.

It is a time of war, and integration of these three tribes has temporarily taken a back seat to the efforts on the front lines. In the meanwhile, refugees and hopefuls from the tribes have situated themselves in refugee stations such as this one, waiting for permission, visas, housing and jobs in Minmatar space. The bar is in the middle of one of those refugee areas.

For relevant news items check out Thukker tribe to join Republic with full autonomy in the Great Wildlands and the news items tagged with the Minmatar Republic tag.

[Matariki Rain]

Any Matari out there, Republic loyalists or not, consider the following questions:

1) Currently, the Starkmanir, Thukker and Nefantar (formerly the Ammatars) are outside the Republic. Should they be re-intergrated?

2) Does it matter that a significant amount of Starkmanir follow many Amarrian customs, some even worshipping their God?

3) What about Nefantar who were former slave-holders?

4) What would is your vision of what the Republic should be?

N'maro, as some of you will know from talking to him IC, is very much a Tribal Unionist.

His view is that all the Tribes should be a member of the Republic, also that the Republic should remain respectful of tribal traditions, and that reconciliation is possible and should be worked towards. In this he may be slightly naive, as he is willing to allow the Starkmanir absolute freedom of religion, the Thukker to continue with thier traditions, and forgive any Nefantar who previously held slaves. He belives that all Tribes are inextricably linked by belief in self-determination and independence, as well as a firey resilience and determination.

In short, he believes that all Matari should look after each other, and that divided, the Tribes may be lost to eternity.

I'm looking for the dramatic tension here but not seeing it. It sounds like N'maro's views are consistent with the current situation in the Tribal Republic. Given what you've said in point (1) can I take it that that's because events have changed since the world was first described, and N'maro is still catching up?

As best I can piece it together, the Matari state doesn't involve itself with personal expressions of religion and such, neither requiring nor forbidding any system of belief or observance. (The tribes and clans themselves might, but that's a whole 'nother story.) The state and tribal police (and the SoE) do seem to try to police violence and disorder... not always with perfect success, since murders and riots still happen. This is, in good part, because the people have some quite strong feelings about a number of matters. The tensions have been a theme of the Matari news, particularly between members of the tribes which established the Republic and members of the newly-joined tribes, and between followers of the Amarrian god and those violently opposed to the religion which saw their people enslaved. (See especially Cultural friction turns Minmatar refugee ghettos into battlegrounds.)

So I think N'maro's in sync with his state but out of sync with a portion of Matari people.

Some other notes in passing:

Out of all the tribes, the Thukker are the ones who indubitably have an unbroken, living tradition going back to before the Day of Darkness. The idea of suggesting that the Thukker should change their traditions is strange to me. They've brought themselves within the "Tribal Republic" fold, but as an autonomous state-within-a-state, so their own ways and laws are secure. I note, though, that in the remarkable melting pot that is the current Republic, there are apparently Thukker who have chosen to try this settling down thing. In brief, I don't think the Thukker would stay around to be put through any sort of forced re-education.

For extra flavour, I play that there are occasional tensions when some of the neoTrad Matari movements propose that evidence of a proper Voluval mark should be a requirement for the tribal equivalent of adult citizenship (the Thukker don't observe the Voluval). But, like, they're Thukker... that's how they roll. It's one matter that might help maintain separation between the Thukker and "the rest", though.

[Matariki Rain]

IC, of course, parts of this are a huge big deal.

[Esna Pitoojee]

Stuff on the Elders:

First, there's a Jovian bloodline named "Elders". There's really no evidence they're connected to the Minmatar Elders; indeed, they apparently became more reclusive after the fall of the first Jove Empire. (Many thanks to the EM forums for this info!)

From ingame descriptions:
- Elders were apparently much more common in earlier times (pre-Amarrian invasion?); when they were about, they influenced the Tribes to the point of being able to declare entire regions as neutral ground.  -Molden Heath region description.
- Elders can be killed; doing so is quite damaging to a tribe. - Y-DSSK system description.

From here on out, the information becomes confusing, sometimes contradictory, and even just plain silly, but I've tried to pull up the basic facts.

From "Theodicy":
- During the initial invasions of the old Minmatar Empire, Elders were rounded up en masse and sent off to deadly working conditions in an attempt to wage psychological/sociological war on the Minmatar.
- They were sometimes killed after arriving in their new working location... presumably just to make sure they did die.
- Some Elders were young, even chilren.

From "The Empyrean Age":
- by YC 110, few Minmatar still believed the Elders were about.
- despite this, the Elders managed to run a large network of agents to do their bidding.
- the Elders were, in large part, responsible for the building up a secret fleet using the aid money donated by the Federation to the Republic.
- Coordination between the Elders and the Thukker Tribe on a massive scale was possible; it isn't clear if the Thukkers were contacted directly by the Elders or the by their network of agents.
- It also isn't clear if there is an Elder representative for the Thukkers, since their Elder at the time of the Amarr invasion was apparently killed.
- The ships present during the Elder invasion made it quite clear they were representatives of the Elders. This was apparently accepted.

Hope that helps some.

[Shern]

 Not all of the Nefanters have stopped being ammatars too - the Mandate still exists.  Considering the lukewarm reception the Nefanter have had in the Republic, I wonder if some have gone home.

Better the devil you know after all...

[Lyn Farel]

What Matariki said for me, I have the same global feeling about this.

On another note, I tend now to make a clear lexical distinction between "Nefantar" and "Ammatar".

- Ammatar is quite easy to define : as said in the chronicle description, it is Amarr and Minmatar merged together by gallentean practical people, and then used by almost everyone to described the Minmatar living with the Empire (was it exclusively adressed to the inhabitants of the Mandate or to every Minmatar that comes to live in the Empire, including freed slaves living in the Empire ? I don't know).

- Nefantar is at the origin, one of the seven tribes (full of aristocratic Minmatars of the upper classes in the past if I am correct). Since the beginning of the game, and in the lore, they have been considered to be the same as the Ammatar for the simple reason that they were the minmatar traitors that were chased out of their home by their ex brothers, and sheltered in the Mandate by the Amarr. This basically until Empyrean Age. With the new PF elements that tell some of the old Nefantars in the confidence actually remembered why they betrayed, and it was apparently to protect the enslaved Starkmanir tribe. So when their purpose was complete, they eventually left back to the Republic and their old brothers. This imply a totally new meaning for the Nefantar that remain at the end one of the seven tribes. But the majority of the Ammatar when Empyrean Age occurs are also of Nefantar origin. So who are the Nefantar ? I think keeping the PF in mind, both technically are : the Ammatar living in the Mandate and the Nefantar living in the Republic are mechanilly Nefantar.

So it is easy to speak about the people living in the Mandate : they are the Ammatar and there is no confusion to have about this (there is no ammatar in the Republic, ofc). But for the Nefantars, it is hard to described them. How do you do to make clear that you speak of the ones that left the Mandate or the Ammatar that are of Nefantar origin ? I usually tend to use "The Nefantar" only to speak about the ones that left the Mandate since the Empyrean Age, but it is unclear. It always leads to misunderstandings of all sorts.

1) Currently, the Starkmanir, Thukker and Nefantar (formerly the Ammatars) are outside the Republic. Should they be re-intergrated?

There seems to be this silly notion that the Republic is somehow the main body of Matari. Should they be integrated into a Tribal Assembly? Certainly, if they wish to be part of the unified Tribes. The Republic? Not so much. However, it'd require losing a lot of dead weight, i.e. the Ammatar needs to get rid of the faith and so on.

2) Does it matter that a significant amount of Starkmanir follow many Amarrian customs, some even worshipping their God?

It matters immensely. Being Matari means more than blood and genetics. It's culture and faith as well, which does not include the Amarrian faith. And far more importantly, the Amarrian faith is what justified seven hundred years of slavery to begin with, so it's understandably not something that should or would be welcome within the Tribes.

3) What about Nefantar who were former slave-holders?

Highly individual. Are they renouncing it truthfully and embracing the Tribes? If so, they should be allowed to at least try. Are they just doing it to pay lip-service? Kill them.

4) What would is your vision of what the Republic should be?

A pile of ash. Get rid of that Gallente attempt at enslaving the Matari through political and cultural dominance, and create something uniquely Matari instead. However, that will be a project that would have to start later. Not now, when the inherent weaknesses in tearing something down could spell doom. It'll have to wait until the Amarrian threat is dealt with.

Are you speaking IC or OOC ? (sorry if I have a doubt, my question is genuine or I might cause a misunderstanding by my following question)

If OOC, do you have sources for what you state here ? I mean, with the need to get rid of any amarrian faith to be part of the tribes/republic ?

[Arkady Sadik]

Any Matari out there, Republic loyalists or not, consider the following questions:

I'm a bit confused as to what kind of answer you are looking for. An IC answer would best be gotten by asking ICly.

Most of the below has been mentioned by Matariki already, mostly adding links now:

1) Currently, the Starkmanir, Thukker and Nefantar (formerly the Ammatars) are outside the Republic. Should they be re-intergrated?

You might find these news items interesting:

Sanmatar Shakor Calls for Assembly of the Seven Tribes
Thukker Tribe to Join Republic with Full Autonomy in the Great Wildlands

The second one basically says that all three joined the Republic.

There are issues, of course:

Tensions Over Land Increase as Starkmanir and Nefantar Press Claims
The Lost Tribe: Starkmanir Creating New Cultural Identity
Many Starkmanir Refugees Finding New Life Difficult

There's also a chronicle on the general issues:

Beasts of the Field

2) Does it matter that a significant amount of Starkmanir follow many Amarrian customs, some even worshipping their God?

Sanmatar Shakor Delays Tribal Assembly, Returned Tribes 'Need More Time'
In the Wake of Jarek, Religion Continues to Be Contentious Issue (the whole Abel Jarek arc is quite interesting on this topic: 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14)
Cultural Friction Turns Minmatar Refugee Ghettos Into Battlegrounds (already mentioned in this thread :-))
Starkmanir Religious Leader Killed In Violent Riot

3) What about Nefantar who were former slave-holders?

Dunno if there's a mention of this in the news. I suspect it would give a pretty strong negative background, with varying repercussions - from a nasty frown in some areas (a bit like finding out that someone used to be in the KKK when he was young) to pretty much anything you can come up with. The Republic is huge, there's place for everything. E.g. you could include a forced introduction to everyone in the area as "hello, I'm a former slaver", a bit like child molesters get to do in the US. Just try to avoid statements on "everyone in the Republic does ...".

4) What would is your vision of what the Republic should be?

OOCly, this is extremely difficult to answer. The best I can do is a very vague idea on general story types I enjoy. I want stories in EVE to be without black and white, no clear good, no clear evil. People find out they are forced to do Bad Stuff because of their best intentions. No choice has a "good" option, only a number of differently bad ones. Everyone's just a small cog in the machine, no one has full power but is subject to practical constraints beyond their own control.

That is, ideally, I would like the Republic's story not written by TonyG.

[Nmaro Makari]

Maybe I should have made this clearer, but what I am looking for is an ooc summary of you character's Ic opinion.

[Matariki Rain]

Maybe I should have made this clearer, but what I am looking for is an ooc summary of you character's Ic opinion.

To get that you'll need to roleplay for it.

Not meaning to be obstructive here, but that sort of discovery is a good part of what the roleplay's about.