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[Mitara Newelle]

If you are looking for an example of just how much an Amarrian would sacrifice for their Faith, I would direct you to one of my favorite chronicles - Innocent Faces

[Andreus Ixiris]

There's many different interpretations of that chronicle, actually.

[Mitara Newelle]

If you mean it was done strictly out of fear of the TC, I can see that.  For me though, that still falls under what the Amarrian Faith is.

If you had something else in mind, I'd like to hear it!

[lallara zhuul]

Yup.

That's the only canon character (a clown at a childrens show) that has actually sacrificed anything for his Faith.

Of course you could debate that King Khanid left the Empire for his Faith instead of greed.

But in all in-game interaction with the Amarrian canon characters in all these 8+ years of EVE, there has never been any decision made on pure Faith. The reasons behind the decisions has been politics, self-preservation and pride.

Even the Tetrimon were sporting clones.

[Victoria Stecker]

I never really got the impression that the Amarr faith was one with called for a great deal of sacrifice from its followers, particularly those living in the Empire. I think an example of sacrifice for faith would be found in the Minmatar who hold onto their Amarrian faith when returning to the Republic - they aren't exactly well-liked, they are in some cases met with strong and even violent opposition. It would be even worse for a Matari born in the Republic to a family that did not believe, who perhaps learned about the faith from new arrivals from the Empire and then converted. Such a person might be sacrificing friends, family, job opportunity, and any number of other things, in the name of their faith.

The Empire has been built around the faith, it makes sense that it isn't going to demand much in the way of sacrifice. I could make comparisons between this and the United States,  where it is very easy and comfortable to be a Christian, as opposed to countries where you might be killed for making a profession of faith.

[Andreus Ixiris]

The guy in Innocent Faces always struck me and Faust (who is basically Mixed Metaphor's resident theologian and an even more ardent antitheist than me) as someone who believed in believing, but didn't actually believe. When he's looking among the faces at the end:

As the children applauded for the final time that evening, Cherall looked around at all the faces surrounding him, the hundreds of visages floating in the air inside the room, staring down at him and smiling. A single tear rolled down his cheek as he continued to look at them, searching hopelessly for something familiar among all the innocent faces.

He's not looking for his daughter. He knows his daughter is going to die, and so is his ex-wife. What he's looking for is faith. In the faces of the children he's looking for the faith that he can no longer feel nor can remember the feeling of. He truly believes that people - children in particular - should believe, but he's lost a friend and he knows he's about to lose a lot more. He has lost everything, including his faith in God. I'm pretty sure Cherall is, at this point - or becomes, soon after - a nihilist. His faith has cost him everything and given him nothing. The only reason he doesn't take the final step and renounce his faith publicly is because despite the fact he knows he's lying to them, he can't bare to leave the children who love him in a world as empty as the one he now inhabits.

That's my interpretation, at least. And you can call it pretentious anti-theist propaganda if you want (and I have a feeling a couple of specific people will) but this interpretation actually makes the story even more powerfully resonant with me.

[Graelyn]

Even the Tetrimon were sporting clones.

Are you sure about that?

[Laerise [PIE]]

I never really got the impression that the Amarr faith was one with called for a great deal of sacrifice from its followers, particularly those living in the Empire. I think an example of sacrifice for faith would be found in the Minmatar who hold onto their Amarrian faith when returning to the Republic - they aren't exactly well-liked, they are in some cases met with strong and even violent opposition. It would be even worse for a Matari born in the Republic to a family that did not believe, who perhaps learned about the faith from new arrivals from the Empire and then converted. Such a person might be sacrificing friends, family, job opportunity, and any number of other things, in the name of their faith.

The Empire has been built around the faith, it makes sense that it isn't going to demand much in the way of sacrifice. I could make comparisons between this and the United States,  where it is very easy and comfortable to be a Christian, as opposed to countries where you might be killed for making a profession of faith.

"Zakara saw the danger to his brother, and did not hesitate; without weapon or armor, he hurled himself at the beast, attacking with his bare hands. Enraged, the beast turned and struck Zakara, opening a terrible wound in his side. Seizing the moment, Garum ran his sword through the beast's heart, thus ending the battle victorious. But Zakara, mortally wounded, cried out in pain. You sacrificed yourself for me,' Garum said, taking his hand.

"We are brothers,' Zakara answered, just before breathing his last. 'And in God we shall remain brothers for all of time." - The Scriptures, Saint Junip 10:25[/quote

[Mitara Newelle]

The guy in Innocent Faces always struck me and Faust (who is basically Mixed Metaphor's resident theologian and an even more ardent antitheist than me) as someone who believed in believing, but didn't actually believe. When he's looking among the faces at the end:

As the children applauded for the final time that evening, Cherall looked around at all the faces surrounding him, the hundreds of visages floating in the air inside the room, staring down at him and smiling. A single tear rolled down his cheek as he continued to look at them, searching hopelessly for something familiar among all the innocent faces.

He's not looking for his daughter. He knows his daughter is going to die, and so is his ex-wife. What he's looking for is faith. In the faces of the children he's looking for the faith that he can no longer feel nor can remember the feeling of. He truly believes that people - children in particular - should believe, but he's lost a friend and he knows he's about to lose a lot more. He has lost everything, including his faith in God. I'm pretty sure Cherall is, at this point - or becomes, soon after - a nihilist. His faith has cost him everything and given him nothing. The only reason he doesn't take the final step and renounce his faith publicly is because despite the fact he knows he's lying to them, he can't bare to leave the children who love him in a world as empty as the one he now inhabits.

That's my interpretation, at least. And you can call it pretentious anti-theist propaganda if you want (and I have a feeling a couple of specific people will) but this interpretation actually makes the story even more powerfully resonant with me.

That's a very interesting take on it, and very plausible.  I like my version better though as it fits with Mitty more

[lallara zhuul]

Grand Master Elata Ardo died because there was an unfortunate accident at the cloning facility where he was supposed to respawn to, after he was killed by a certain someone.

[Victoria Stecker]

"Zakara saw the danger to his brother, and did not hesitate; without weapon or armor, he hurled himself at the beast, attacking with his bare hands. Enraged, the beast turned and struck Zakara, opening a terrible wound in his side. Seizing the moment, Garum ran his sword through the beast's heart, thus ending the battle victorious. But Zakara, mortally wounded, cried out in pain. You sacrificed yourself for me,' Garum said, taking his hand.

"We are brothers,' Zakara answered, just before breathing his last. 'And in God we shall remain brothers for all of time." - The Scriptures, Saint Junip 10:25

I don't mean to say that the faith does not call for sacrifice, but rather that the Empire and its society have been built such that it is not required - thus, the lack of examples from PF characters. And even in that example, Zakara sacrifices himself for his brother - not necessarily for his faith.

While this risks straying into a discussion of faith/religion/theology, I'm curious what sacrifice would look like for capsuleers. We are defined by the fact that we don't die when we're supposed to, as a result we amass the wealth of nations while committing mass murder, etc.

Unless placed in a situation like the character from the chron ("renounce your faith or suffer x,y and z"), what can we do as capsuleers?

[Laerise [PIE]]

Capsuleers sacrifice their soul when they die the first time, says the theology council.

[Graelyn]

Grand Master Elata Ardo died because there was an unfortunate accident at the cloning facility where he was supposed to respawn to, after he was killed by a certain someone.

Just wondering where you're getting that. 

[Gottii]

If you mean it was done strictly out of fear of the TC, I can see that.  For me though, that still falls under what the Amarrian Faith is.

If you had something else in mind, I'd like to hear it!

I agree with your interpretation.  Religions often thrive when persecuted or forced to make heinous sacrifices.  People want to find meaning in their choices, especially in dark times.

[GoGo Yubari]

But come on.. I think it's pretty clear that for most of the ruling class religion is just a tool or a casual social event. They're hypocrites.

That's not to say that truly pious high class Amarrians don't exist, but they're likely quite rare. I'd say that makes playing one kind of more awesome, waxing all nostalgic about "the good old days when faith still meant something."