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Author Topic: Amarr Conservatives?  (Read 8842 times)

Invelious

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Amarr Conservatives?
« on: 24 Jun 2011, 10:02 »

Wondering if there are any truely amarr loyal and traditional conservatives out there, except for us PIE's tbh...

Yes, Invelious is played as one. But, there is a difference in view, wherein I will kill anything that doesn't declare its loyalty to the Empire. If you dont support Amarr, you dont belong in our borders. Invelious views foreigners as a stain on Amarr, and its citizens. 
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Victoria Stecker

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Re: Amarr Conservatives?
« Reply #1 on: 24 Jun 2011, 10:28 »

Depends on how you define conservative - Invelious's distaste for foreigners is a fairly extreme (and impressive) example. Much of the liberal/conservative distinction these days seems to revolve around the slavery debate (I think) - so what would a liberal or conservative look like aside from that issue? Is there any form of house loyalty or infighting within the Amarr community? What political issues are there outside of slavery? The legitimacy of the Empress? Or have people stopped caring about that?
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Louella Dougans

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Re: Amarr Conservatives?
« Reply #2 on: 24 Jun 2011, 10:42 »

Godflesh doctrine - challenges the legitimacy of the Empress. Yonis Ardishapur is possibly the only one who managed to make a public statement about it without trouble.

Slavery doctrines - mentioned in the amarr epic arc. People say Vitoc is outdated. They also oppose the release of slaves that the Empress did recently.

Khanid secession/unity - Grumblings about accepting King Khanid back as if nothing happened.

Udorians - House Tash-Murkon is Udorian, which some murmur about.

several more political issues.

Thing is, though, that with the kind of material put out recently, and in the past too, that it is painted that Amarrians generally don't argue about politics in public.

contrast:

Quafe and Fedmart have a spat, various pro/anti Gallente groups appear and argue about things in public.

House Kador engages in open war against House Kor-Azor, Amarrians simply say "Indeed."

That's how they're painted anyway.


With other issues though, people seem to have kind of stopped caring, because there's no way to progress with them. No news, no chronicles, means that there's not a lot to work with, beyond saying "I think this" "I disagree" "Quite."


Ultra Conservative:
Frowns at the Empress's rise to power, frowns at King Khanid, frowns at Tash-Murkon, frowns at this appeasement of the heathen foreigners.

Ultra Liberal:
Accepts the Empress as Empress, embraces King Khanid, welcomes Tash-Murkon, is happy at the age of slavery ending.

Much in between.
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Laerise [PIE]

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Re: Amarr Conservatives?
« Reply #3 on: 24 Jun 2011, 10:54 »

Depends on how you define conservative - Invelious's distaste for foreigners is a fairly extreme (and impressive) example. Much of the liberal/conservative distinction these days seems to revolve around the slavery debate (I think) - so what would a liberal or conservative look like aside from that issue? Is there any form of house loyalty or infighting within the Amarr community? What political issues are there outside of slavery? The legitimacy of the Empress? Or have people stopped caring about that?

Actually slavery is just a fairly minor part of the deepest divide between nowadays ultra liberals and the traditional conservatives (the amarr bloc).
The true divide is the question of the supremacy that is inherent in the true believers, and especially the right of the True Amarr to rule and lead.

Your comments about Jamyl pretty much show off how sadly limited most peoples views are nowadays. It seems to me that it all boils down to "omg slavery" and "omg Jamyl is cloned" for most people.
However, the scriptures outright state that the true amarr, the first believers, are destined to rule over everyone else, to lead the non-believers to God etc. This view has been backed since ever at least I can remember - and I only joined very recently in the big picture.

The distaste for foreigners / xenophobia comes, in my experience, mostly from the simple fact that most True Amarr, and in kind the Khanid and Ni-Kunni, have a huge superiority complex centered around their heritage. As many chronicles and news articles have pointed out the amarr usualy view events in a more long term way than, say, for example the federation or the republic. The simple fact that the leaders of the empire live for multiple centuries pretty much cements that impression, such a long lifespan will certainly behoove you to plan ahead.

Now, back on topic.
The contemporary ultra liberals are very happy to mingle with non-amarrians and take on their customs, be that just for show or for real.
While this strikes me personally as quite uncharacteristic of the amarrians described in the PF I'll deal with what I see, and if people want to be their own special snow flakes they can be my guest, I'll be happy to include them in my RP.
It is a (sad?) fact that the old school liberal/conservative line has been dragged way to the left end of the spectrum.
PIE used to be considered dangerously liberal by many, and while we may have slightly edged more to the right wing we are still pretty Heideranian. Now, Kotmc for example, is very happy to openly flaunt their ultra liberal convictions, their members frequently speak their very mind in public, sometimes even without, or against, the will of their superiors. This goes very much against the trend that has been established, by both CCP and the amarr bloc, ever since the servers went life - and in some cases even before that.

Many people have stopped to care about the intra-amarrian politics when FW came along, something we had predicted beforehand.
There still are a lot of issues on the table, but, at least in the conservative circles, such internal debates are obviously kept private  and behind closed doors. This is, by the way, again typical for the 08/15 PF amarrian, who will happily stick a knife in his bosses back, but wouldn't dare talk down to him anywhere.
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Raze Valadeus

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Re: Amarr Conservatives?
« Reply #4 on: 24 Jun 2011, 11:02 »

Not all KotMC are like that, Laerise.

Raze is a member of KotMC and abhors public displays of disunity and dissension between any one in the Empire (regardless of race or corporation). He has also always spoken with respect toward his fellow Amarrians (even if he disagrees with them) and when he does voice a disagreement or argument, it is always in a respectful, constructive way.

There's only been like two examples of him losing his cool, one was in public and wasn't with an Amarrian and the other was in private - where it should be.
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Laerise [PIE]

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Re: Amarr Conservatives?
« Reply #5 on: 24 Jun 2011, 11:04 »

Godflesh doctrine - challenges the legitimacy of the Empress. Yonis Ardishapur is possibly the only one who managed to make a public statement about it without trouble.

This would be heresy. If the theology council declares Jamyl I. the rightful empress then it is so and she was reborn in a miraculous way. If the theology council had done wrong the speakers of truth would have interceded. I know it seems outrageous, and for us it certainly feels that way, but this is the reality in a theocracy. If someone is elected pope and the cardinals do not speak out against him even though he is a woman he is still a pope for all intents and purposes - to deny that would be to break with the orthodoxy of the church at that point in time.

Thing is, though, that with the kind of material put out recently, and in the past too, that it is painted that Amarrians generally don't argue about politics in public.

This very much. The amarr started out as an insular, xenophobic culture and they still pretty much are. No matter how much you squabble behind closed doors, you better present a united front to everyone else.


With other issues though, people seem to have kind of stopped caring, because there's no way to progress with them. No news, no chronicles, means that there's not a lot to work with, beyond saying "I think this" "I disagree" "Quite."

The same could be sad for the minmatar RP as well though. They seemed to have a very nice thing going with the EM vs U'K divide during the haydays before Maleatu Shakor became the minmatar Stalin and said "njet". :(


Ultra Conservative:
Frowns at the Empress's rise to power, frowns at King Khanid, frowns at Tash-Murkon, frowns at this appeasement of the heathen foreigners.

Ultra Liberal:
Accepts the Empress as Empress, embraces King Khanid, welcomes Tash-Murkon, is happy at the age of slavery ending.

Much in between.

I agree, mostly, although I would like to add that you forgot about the open armed posture of the ultra liberals concerning foreign influences.


Not all KotMC are like that, Laerise.

Raze is a member of KotMC and abhors public displays of disunity and dissension between any one in the Empire (regardless of race or corporation). He has also always spoken with respect toward his fellow Amarrians (even if he disagrees with them) and when he does voice a disagreement or argument, it is always in a respectful, constructive way.

There's only been like two examples of him losing his cool, one was in public and wasn't with an Amarrian and the other was in private - where it should be.

Maybe not, but it is certainly the way your leadership portraits your corp to the outside, no offense intended.
« Last Edit: 24 Jun 2011, 11:06 by Laerise [PIE] »
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scagga

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Re: Amarr Conservatives?
« Reply #6 on: 24 Jun 2011, 11:12 »

:hugs thread:

Interesting stuff.

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Victoria Stecker

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Re: Amarr Conservatives?
« Reply #7 on: 24 Jun 2011, 11:25 »

I assume from an RP standpoint that the Amarr block looked a bit different before FW. I've only been playing since a little before Tyrannis, so I have no knowledge of what things were like prior.

I can understand how FW and the sudden emergence on an enemy would help to discourage internal conflict - "We can't fight each other, the Minmatar are attacking!"

Of course, then there was that brief bit a while ago when the Amarr militia started shooting each other. I really wish that had evolved into a proper civil war rather than petering out (or being taken out of public view). It simply would have made things much more interesting.
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Louella Dougans

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Re: Amarr Conservatives?
« Reply #8 on: 24 Jun 2011, 11:35 »

Godflesh doctrine - challenges the legitimacy of the Empress. Yonis Ardishapur is possibly the only one who managed to make a public statement about it without trouble.

This would be heresy. If the theology council declares Jamyl I. the rightful empress then it is so and she was reborn in a miraculous way. If the theology council had done wrong the speakers of truth would have interceded. I know it seems outrageous, and for us it certainly feels that way, but this is the reality in a theocracy. If someone is elected pope and the cardinals do not speak out against him even though he is a woman he is still a pope for all intents and purposes - to deny that would be to break with the orthodoxy of the church at that point in time.

Here's an article about what the Theology Council said at the time.
Quote
Acceding to the other Heirs' requests to be withdrawn from consideration, and accepting the legitimacy of Sarum's claim, it acknowledged that as the sole remaining candidate the only acceptable course of action was to declare her Empress-elect and proceed with the coronation. It declined to pass any comment on the circumstances of Sarum's return, stating simply that "there is no acceptable explanation of [her return] available to us at this time".


Ardishapur dedicating the cathedral to the obscure saint who came up with Godflesh doctrine, is a statement along the lines of "The Empress is the Empress, but I am not required to like her."


Which is more to reinforce the characterisation about not disagreeing in open.
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Laerise [PIE]

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Re: Amarr Conservatives?
« Reply #9 on: 24 Jun 2011, 13:46 »

Yep, the cathedral naming is a very nice touch, and what I'd call typically amarrian :D
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Mitara Newelle

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Re: Amarr Conservatives?
« Reply #10 on: 24 Jun 2011, 14:03 »

I would think Mitty falls under the category of Conservative Amarr.  I try to play her as she's totally drank the cool-aid.

While considerably more tolerant of foreigners than say Invelious or Laerise, she still considers them beneath her and in need of enlightenment.  Slavery has been the choice of Amarr for centuries, and therefore God's way, so that's the way it should be :)

Jamyl I is a miracle, and anyone who says otherwise shall burn at the stake for their heresy.

Prior to offering Khanid II a seat on the Privy Council, the Kingdom and it's King were rightful outcasts and to be looked down on.  Now that Jamyl has brought Khanid back into the fold, they must be welcomed back as Brothers and Sisters in Faith.


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Section 3) Shitposting. "The cluster would be a much better place if all Amarrians were set on fire"

Mitara Newelle

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Re: Amarr Conservatives?
« Reply #11 on: 24 Jun 2011, 14:09 »

One thing I'd like to add is that the way I understand Amarr to work is that everything about Amarr - culture, dress, behavior, etc, etc is tradition driven. Which in turn is Scripture driven(shaped by the Theology Council of course). So everything about them is a way to honor God.
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Section 3) Shitposting. "The cluster would be a much better place if all Amarrians were set on fire"

scagga

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Re: Amarr Conservatives?
« Reply #12 on: 24 Jun 2011, 15:19 »

I assume from an RP standpoint that the Amarr block looked a bit different before FW. I've only been playing since a little before Tyrannis, so I have no knowledge of what things were like prior.

I can understand how FW and the sudden emergence on an enemy would help to discourage internal conflict - "We can't fight each other, the Minmatar are attacking!"

Of course, then there was that brief bit a while ago when the Amarr militia started shooting each other. I really wish that had evolved into a proper civil war rather than petering out (or being taken out of public view). It simply would have made things much more interesting.

If my historical recollection serves me correct, perhaps the stronger force for unification of the Amarr bloc was Operation Judas Goat.  To my knowledge there was not significant discord within the Amarr bloc immediately before FW.  However, FW did introduce some schisms in the ranks, where a subset prioritised the objectives of FW, and another looked towards developing 0.0. and fighting enemies in the traditional way.
« Last Edit: 24 Jun 2011, 15:23 by scagga »
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Odelya

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Re: Amarr Conservatives?
« Reply #13 on: 24 Jun 2011, 16:36 »

Odelya definitely has a conservative agenda, the problem (and the reason) is that she is a hedonist party slut and partly of Gallentean descent... And that needs some serious cover.

PIE used to be considered dangerously liberal by many, and while we may have slightly edged more to the right wing we are still pretty Heideranian.

Agreed. I find PIE quite liberal to be honest, all this public talks and studies about the legitimacy of slavery...  ;) But maybe conservatism isn’t so much defined by political opinions and is more a matter of habitus and weltanschauung in general?

If someone is elected pope and the cardinals do not speak out against him even though he is a woman he is still a pope for all intents and purposes - to deny that would be to break with the orthodoxy of the church at that point in time.

Tell that to him: http://www.vaticaninexile.com/ ;)
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Horatius Caul

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Re: Amarr Conservatives?
« Reply #14 on: 24 Jun 2011, 17:01 »

Horatius is more conservative than he seems  8)
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