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[Seriphyn]

http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1536126

Latest development. FW is shit, we did our best, and I'm not surprised IPI/I-RED don't want to participate in the mechanic, but hey-ho. I will say there is still stupendously epic (and extremely challenging) fights to be had in FW plexes. No station to redock at, no gate to jump through, no escape.

It can be said to be a metagame of DUST 514, which infers a ground war on Intaki, but it's really not a stretch in-character to say "Hm, the Caldari are occupying the system and are probably going to invade the planet", as happened with other Gallente worlds. It's more of a "rally the troops", and "paint the Caldari militia as black as possible". There has always been a difficult Gallente hard platform to go off of, and invading Caldari has never been a better platform.

Anyway, I can't really see how it goes as, as 6 hours from now, I'll be gone to Norway with the RN. Will be interested to see what I come back to.

[Hamish Grayson]

I'm explaining these things to you OOC, because I know it's not just an IC propaganda thing for you.

- No Caldari Navy were ever in Intaki
- The Intaki Assembly's message was addressed only to the FDU, and it's contents were a request to stop shooting the Mordu's Legion and unarmed Ishukone civilians and was  not a request to a ceasefire between the two militias.
- The Auction was about business rights, not selling of conquered  assets.
- Damar is not a FC

[John Revenent]

http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1536126

Latest development. FW is shit, we did our best, and I'm not surprised IPI/I-RED don't want to participate in the mechanic, but hey-ho. I will say there is still stupendously epic (and extremely challenging) fights to be had in FW plexes. No station to redock at, no gate to jump through, no escape.

I-RED fights the Caldari Militia daily in Intaki, they are one of the main reasons I have to buy a new ship everyday (Damar engaging our pilots while blue was awesome.). While it is not helping the Gallente Militia (Being Ishukone aligned probably wont ever see us trying to secure sites on either side.) we do have our hands full as well since the Protectorate hates us about as much as the Gallente.

[Casiella]

[mod]Tread carefully and don't go pear shaped. [/mod]

[Valdezi]

To clarify, are you (IC) calling on us to support the FDU militarily against the STPRO forces?

[Seriphyn]

Mammal - IC, sorta kinda yes, but OOC, as I pointed out here, it's a bleh mechanic so I wouldn't be surprised if you didn't want to 

Hamish -

- No Caldari Navy were ever in Intaki

Every single PF resource points them out to be Caldari Navy (here, here, here, here, and here) including the fact that they are the same NPCs that appear in pirate missions as "Caldari Navy". They have the tags and so forth. I'm afraid you're going to have to point out where it says they are NOT Caldari Navy? The consensus is there.

- The Intaki Assembly's message was addressed only to the FDU, and it's contents were a request to stop shooting the Mordu's Legion and unarmed Ishukone civilians and was  not a request to a ceasefire between the two militias.

Mm, yes. Although the ILF have spun it as a general ceasefire back in January, I figured I'd follow that route.

- The Auction was about business rights, not selling of conquered  assets.

Well, from a timeline written by CCP Ginger..."State Executor Tibus Heth emphasised that 'any attempt to intrude upon the sovereign territory of the Caldari State will be met with an immediate nd overwhelming response.' This was seen as a warning that Roden's campaign promises regarding recovery of Caldari Prime and the occupied Gallente systems. Certainly, Heth's use of the term 'sovereign territory' indicated very clearly the Caldari attitude to both Caldari Prime and the territories they had gained in the State Protectorate offensive"

- Damar is not a FC

The fact he can assemble pilots to outnumber us is more than both IC and OOC grounds to label him as a "commander", though we never said FC. A leader certainly, mm, a "tactical commander" at least.

Anyway, this time around it may be more interesting. The first time, there was little detail about how Intaki was controlled. It took the occupation and liberation to reveal how the Intaki system has authority over its own interests, and the Ishukone/Mordu both negotiated with the Assembly for peaceful franchise, as opposed to strongarming themselves in. With that in mind, it may produce a different result this time.

[Valdezi]

Mammal - IC, sorta kinda yes, but OOC, as I pointed out here, it's a bleh mechanic so I wouldn't be surprised if you didn't want to 

Yeah, that's cool. The mechanic probably wouldn't end up being a deciding factor in our involvement. The only way we would get involved would be for RP reasons. Whether we want to take that step remains to be seen.

Mm, yes. Although the ILF have spun it as a general ceasefire back in January, I figured I'd follow that route.

This is true in all fairness, and we continue to spin it this way. We don't want militia in Intaki, not of any sort. IC of course. OOC, I love you all.

[orange]

- No Caldari Navy were ever in Intaki

Every single PF resource points them out to be Caldari Navy (here, here, here, here, and here) including the fact that they are the same NPCs that appear in pirate missions as "Caldari Navy". They have the tags and so forth. I'm afraid you're going to have to point out where it says they are NOT Caldari Navy? The consensus is there.

Multiple players have done so before for you and you refuse to accept the logic presented.  Why should they continue to do so?

At the end of the day, every Caldari character can say, "The Feds just don't get it.  They can't tell the difference between Caldari Navy, State Protectorate, Home Guard, Ishukone Watch, Peace Corps, etc ship or squadron.  They will believe whatever their precious Scope tells them and can't think outside their own self-inflated world view."

- The Auction was about business rights, not selling of conquered  assets.

Well, from a timeline written by CCP Ginger..."State Executor Tibus Heth emphasised that 'any attempt to intrude upon the sovereign territory of the Caldari State will be met with an immediate nd overwhelming response.' This was seen as a warning that Roden's campaign promises regarding recovery of Caldari Prime and the occupied Gallente systems. Certainly, Heth's use of the term 'sovereign territory' indicated very clearly the Caldari attitude to both Caldari Prime and the territories they had gained in the State Protectorate offensive"

And we can disagree with CCP Ginger's interpretation of presented news article.  Caldari Prime is one thing, while FW occupied territory may be another.  An attack on Caldari Prime is likely to result in a DD being used in high-sec.  We have seen the result of the intrusion on the occupied territory.  I argue that the CONCORD militia act does not allow the territory to change sovreignty (because it does not  ).

[Seriphyn]

Well hold on, if you choose to disagree with a CCP employee, then that basically sets the precedent that you can pick-and-choose whatever piece of fiction you want that conforms to your view of the EVE world, believing some and ignoring others that may contradict it. I'm sure the CONCORD militia act doesn't allow this either, but it's pretty clear that CCP are taking the limited war between the Gallente and Caldari to another level. Ground warfare, allegedly, also takes place between the empires "off-screen".

Take a rookie player. He joins Factional Warfare on any side, and sees NPCs in Caldari plexes. He notices that these NPCs carry Caldari Navy tags, and are the same to appear in Pirate or enemy faction missions that are against the Caldari Navy. He will come to the conclusion "These are Caldari Navy vessels". Fishing out some obscure PF reference that doesn't even directly state it to tell him he's wrong doesn't seem reasonable, as hard evidence is before him that tells him otherwise. There are also numerous news items and so forth that refer to the Federation Navy as present, so the logic is simple enough; the capsuleers lead the charge, and the faction navies follow in their wake as an occupying force.

I mean, it's CCP's material versus player interpretation. It's not exactly criminal to go with the former. It can't be expected to adhere to the logic of a couple of Caldari RPers when the game itself (and CCP's fiction leaders) have a completely different story to tell.

[Saxon Hawke]

Just wanted to say, if you haven't been in FREEINTAKI lately, you've missed out on some really good RP.

I know EVE is supposed to be going to hell in a handcart, but I'm having some of he most fun I've had in a long time with Seri.

After sitting in silence and reading my Eve mails, I made one comment in FREEINTAKI and bam, it was almost two hours of RP. Of course, having Damar in the channel made it really interesting.

Fun times, no monocle required.

[orange]

Well hold on, if you choose to disagree with a CCP employee, then that basically sets the precedent that you can pick-and-choose whatever piece of fiction you want that conforms to your view of the EVE world, believing some and ignoring others that may contradict it.

Andreus has already suggested that.

But more importantly - original Scope article.

And other than CCP Ginger being the only one to put anything on an unmoderated page, there is nothing else to say it is "clear" what Heth meant.  It begs the question, is the timeline an IC source and what role is CCP Ginger assuming there.

I'm sure the CONCORD militia act doesn't allow this either, but it's pretty clear that CCP are taking the limited war between the Gallente and Caldari to another level. Ground warfare, allegedly, also takes place between the empires "off-screen".

Go search the text and find one reference to "Caldari Navy" or "Caldari Army" or even "State Protectorate"; there isn't one.  Those might be Home Guard, Peace & Order Corps or any other Caldari paramilitary organization's troops.  The story does not distinguish who they are.

Take a rookie player. He joins Factional Warfare on any side, and sees NPCs in Caldari plexes. He notices that these NPCs carry Caldari Navy tags, and are the same to appear in Pirate or enemy faction missions that are against the Caldari Navy. He will come to the conclusion "These are Caldari Navy vessels". Fishing out some obscure PF reference that doesn't even directly state it to tell him he's wrong doesn't seem reasonable, as hard evidence is before him that tells him otherwise. There are also numerous news items and so forth that refer to the Federation Navy as present, so the logic is simple enough; the capsuleers lead the charge, and the faction navies follow in their wake as an occupying force.

You are right, he will think "these must be Caldari Navy vessels" based on the presence of Caldari Navy tags.  I am tired of , so I will go play in my corner of the sandbox and not bother with you unless you decide to kick over my sand castles.

[BloodBird]

Dex, what you must understand is that this situation is about as liquid and untangible as the Caldari Prime genocide claims; the PF and other relevant sources aimed at the issue is so broad any argument can be raised from it and any player will jump on any conclusion that benefits them.

Seriphyn wants to think all State military forces involved in FW are Navy elements and not a newly raised militia force? Let him. You will have to deal with that just as Fed. RP'ers will have to deal with the 'you want(ed) us all dead and Caldari Prime bombings prove this' argument. In reality there is not one thing proving any argument truer than the next either IC or OOC.

Fucking annoying, yes, but a fact we have to deal with.

[Hamish Grayson]

You are right, he will think "these must be Caldari Navy vessels" based on the presence of Caldari Navy tags.  I am tired of , so I will go play in my corner of the sandbox and not bother with you unless you decide to kick over my sand castles.

This is my stance as well, accept there is zero chance of you kicking over my sand castle.  Or Dex's really.

[Seriphyn]

Is this a case of the Caldari Navy being portrayed as "bad guys" and "tyrannical invaders" instead of "heroic defenders against the meddling Gallente"? Because there's not going to be any difference if they are Caldari Navy or Home Guard, as they're both still State military. I mean, there's also a set of news item that refers to the Gallentean FW NPCs as Federation Navy, so I'd be unsurprised if the reverse also applies. Other than you two (Dex and Hamish), the general consensus amongst FWers is that the NPCs represent the factional navies. Lvl1 storyline missions that sent players to lowsec Fislipesnes against the NOH occupation explicitly have NPCs prefixed with "Nugoeihuvi".

If I made a mistake, I retract it, but from this end, it appears as if you don't like the idea of the Caldari Navy being portrayed as aggressors and invaders. This is a war, and the shades of grey are everywhere. At least they don't rape prisoners-of-war like those evil Gallente, right?  I mean, I could say "Actually, as 'Gallente' is not an ethnic term, they are actually of Caldari origin that became Federation citizens", but we all know that would be pushing it quite a bit.

It's not really a case of kicking people's sandcastles over, but following what CCP says. Sure, it might offend my perception of the Gallente that they treat prisoners poorly (at least, far outside Federation borders), but I've got to HTFU and accept that as apart of the reality, the same way there are Caldari Navy vessels participating in FW, and the same way there are Federation Navy, Republic Fleet and Imperial Navy warship doing the same.

EDIT - What you're basically saying is that the news items are not reliable sources of prime fiction, and that the Scope ("the most reliable news service in the world") is lying, as is the Caldari Providence Directorate in the quote "However, the CPD makes it clear that no additional national resources are to be allocated to protect mega-corporate activities from Federation militia counterattacks "unless directed as part of strategic Caldari naval operations in the vicinity."". Are the Provists lying then?

[orange]

It is not about the Caldari Navy being the "bad guys" or "tyrannical invaders."

A core concept about the Caldari Navy in my opinion is (underline mine):

The Caldari Navy is smaller in personnel and total ships than both the Federation Navy and the Amarr Navy, yet they have more battleships than any other fleet and the average age of the Caldari ships is considerably less.

A disproportional number of battleships and smaller size indicates to me the Caldari Navy does not serve the same roles as the Federation Navy.  The Caldari Navy is not geared to hold space.  Its doctrine does not involve long patrols along the borders.  Its forces are not committed to light action or even lightly committed to large actions.   The Caldari Navy is committed when a Corporate PMC is being overwhelmed and more than one Corporation's assets are at risk.

The Corporate PMCs hold space / defend property.  The Corporate PMCs defend or do not defend their AoRs.

The Caldari Navy has another role; centralized command system of State, CEP operations.  But it cannot do large undertakings (like invading Luminaire, defending Black Rise, or occupying capture space) on its own.  It must rely on the PMCs and corporations to secure and defend space once the Caldari Navy (with support) has defeated the bulk of the enemy's Navy.

The State's navy, the factional navy of the State, consist of no fewer than 11 different NPC corporations.  These include the Caldari Navy, 8 Megacorporate Security Corporations, Mordu's Legion, and the State Protectorate.

Lvl1 storyline missions that sent players to lowsec Fislipesnes against the NOH occupation explicitly have NPCs prefixed with "Nugoeihuvi".

I know, I have some from the Caldari cosmos.  I picked them up working for Lai Dai.  If NOH wants to keep an operation from the other megacorporations, it is unlikely to operate using outdated Caldari Navy "tags".

What you're basically saying is that the news items are not reliable sources of prime fiction, and that the Scope ("the most reliable news service in the world") is lying, as is the Caldari Providence Directorate in the quote "However, the CPD makes it clear that no additional national resources are to be allocated to protect mega-corporate activities from Federation militia counterattacks "unless directed as part of strategic Caldari naval operations in the vicinity."". Are the Provists lying then?

You are trying to get me to commit to a position that all the Scope says is a lie - it isn't - and therefore the quote from the CPD is also a lie.  It is open to interpretation just like reporting from CNN, BBC, or Al-Jazeera.

We are saying that the Scope can be played as having a Gallente-aligned bias.  It throws the 11 corporations all in one bucket because its writers & readers are not particularly familiar with the concept of coalition warfare.

Also, it would seem that quote, supports my above position with the Caldari Navy being a national resource.

However, the CPD makes it clear that no additional national resources are to be allocated to protect mega-corporate activities from Federation militia counterattacks "unless directed as part of strategic Caldari naval operations in the vicinity."

I have once again tried to impart my opinion and frame of reference  .  If you take nothing else away from this post, take the bold sentence.