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[Verone]

I can't help but chuckle, considering just about every single assumption you've made about Veto Corp's ideology and how we operate is incorrect.

Still, the tower reinforcement gave our guys a good training lesson in cap deployment, which we were grateful for. Thank you.

Have fun in Placid, I'm sure we'll sink our teeth in again when it's convenient and we're not busy fighting the good fight where the action is elsewhere.

[Kyoko Sakoda]

Veto has ideology?

F1, F2, F-- :groupall: F1...

[Verone]

Veto has ideology?

F1, F2, F-- :groupall: F1...

<3

[Lyn Farel]

I mean we could be massively politically correct and say ...

"SF in Placid space gypsies vs the government"
"SF in Placid right to ramble vs farmers"
"SF in Placid NRDS vs NBSI"
"SF in Placid Free Captains vs Nationalist Pirates"

Perhaps you could suggest a title you think more appropriate?

In the interest of saving the name calling for IC rather than OOC, go with something simple like, "SF in Placid: Now what?" In addition to not calling other people names or placing labels they don't like on their RP, it is much more appropriate to the discussion at hand. Since SF moved to Placid, the story has been dominated by the war with moira and the IC/OOC diplomatic clusterfuck that resulted, and the fleet of threadnaughts it spawned.

 Now that that is over, the question is, now what?

Said better that I would have.

[Jade Constantine]

I mean we could be massively politically correct and say ...

"SF in Placid space gypsies vs the government"
"SF in Placid right to ramble vs farmers"
"SF in Placid NRDS vs NBSI"
"SF in Placid Free Captains vs Nationalist Pirates"

Perhaps you could suggest a title you think more appropriate?

In the interest of saving the name calling for IC rather than OOC, go with something simple like, "SF in Placid: Now what?" In addition to not calling other people names or placing labels they don't like on their RP, it is much more appropriate to the discussion at hand. Since SF moved to Placid, the story has been dominated by the war with moira and the IC/OOC diplomatic clusterfuck that resulted, and the fleet of threadnaughts it spawned.

 Now that that is over, the question is, now what?

Okay I've updated the title as you suggest - hopefully people agree its nice and neutral now

[Jade Constantine]

I can't help but chuckle, considering just about every single assumption you've made about Veto Corp's ideology and how we operate is incorrect.

To be fair I haven't made any real assumptions about Veto ideology. I was speaking in the main about our experience of Rote Kapelle combat methodology where I spoke of Rote/Veto knowing that they were providing the fc'ing and direction in your recent collaborations. However do feel free to clarify your outlook insofar as it might be useful to a respectful discussion of the subject.

[Misan]

FWIW the same applies to your interpretation of RK's approach to combat in general and this conflict more specifically. Particularly this bit:

In actuality Rote functions just like any other 0.0 power really, powerful in a group certainly, but difficult to motivate for individual acts of creativity and genius most especially in relation to principled ideological warfare.

For starters Rote doesn't operate with any sort of ideological goals or campaign targets; this goes doubly so with high-sec wars, especially since the SF wardec was largely for crim flagging convenience on a tower not hunting targets (thanks CCP for that UI patch  ). It seems to me like you are trying to apply the SF approach to war and combat to an entity which doesn't operate at all like SF does, which naturally leads to a misunderstanding of our actions. In that vein I would say you are completely wrong about RK pilots and individual motivation. We have quite a few very skilled solo (and very small gang) pilots who do some rather impressive stuff. Just a quick look over Proxay's Tengu slaughtering spree to see some of the more recent stuff. I think I can safely say that the majority of RK's pilots (aside from FOVRA) much prefer to operate in null-sec and don't particularly care much for low-sec or high-sec wardec fighting. It usually takes a missioning carrier to spark an interest in roaming into Placid low-sec on most nights.

tl;dr version:

Veto has ideology?

F1, F2, F-- :groupall: F1...

Total mystery why we get along so well with Veto. 

[Verone]

To be fair I haven't made any real assumptions about Veto ideology.

...

...I spoke of Rote/Veto knowing that they were providing the fc'ing and direction in your recent collaborations.

...Rote and Veto kept backing Moira and looking for a decisive fight against us...

...Rote Kapelle and Veto assembled (what I’ve been told) was the biggest CTA in their collective history

... it did get in the way of rote/veto planning for the reinforcement battle / but it also moved the timing of the reinforcement battle from midday euro (our chosen fight) to mid evening euro (which rote/veto can operate in)...

Rote/Veto needs to feed the “thrills” of its membership and give them kills during a fleet op so denying this is generally as good

To quote but a few, from one thread of many where you're completely wrong about how and why we fight.

You assume far too much, and you assume based on very bad intelligence that you're receiving from very unreliable sources.

I've explained it all before, both IC and OOC and it just doesn't sink in, you're still in that bubble.

I can't be bothered to repeat myself so I'll just let you float there.

Have fun in Placid Jade.

[Senn Typhos]

Are we really still talking about this? >>

Not really, this is more of a overview.

Ohh, if only life were so easy...

[Bong-cha Jones]

Interesting to hear about SF's transition from Providence to Placid, I was a little curious about why you guys moved.  I'd certainly be up for some ideology style interaction, getting a fix on practical applications of free space ideology within the Federal sector, figuring out how compatible Simon and the Star Fraction's visions of the future are, that sort of thing, when I get back home.

[Jade Constantine]

FWIW the same applies to your interpretation of RK's approach to combat in general and this conflict more specifically. Particularly this bit:

In actuality Rote functions just like any other 0.0 power really, powerful in a group certainly, but difficult to motivate for individual acts of creativity and genius most especially in relation to principled ideological warfare.

For starters Rote doesn't operate with any sort of ideological goals or campaign targets; this goes doubly so with high-sec wars, especially since the SF wardec was largely for crim flagging convenience on a tower not hunting targets (thanks CCP for that UI patch  ).

I don't really think we are disagreeing at all Misan. I'm not saying Rote has no pilots capable of individual acts of creativity or genius - just that as an entity it has no pilots who wish to put these efforts (or flair) into ideologically-principled warfare - which means fighting for a purpose or campaign goal rather than simply for the joy of fighting. I did recognize in my opening text that the wardec was most-likely about the tower reinforcment battle and avoiding gcc'ing your cap fleet.

It seems to me like you are trying to apply the SF approach to war and combat to an entity which doesn't operate at all like SF does, which naturally leads to a misunderstanding of our actions. In that vein I would say you are completely wrong about RK pilots and individual motivation. We have quite a few very skilled solo (and very small gang) pilots who do some rather impressive stuff. Just a quick look over Proxay's Tengu slaughtering spree to see some of the more recent stuff.

I don't feel I am trying to "apply" it so much as contrast and compare actually. My point earlier was that our concern for (and respect of the capabilities of) Rote as an entity was based on a mistaken assessment (on our part) that your outlook would allow the same kind of focus on ideological warfare that we practise. I well know you have silled solo and small gang pilots and I've watched Proxay's goon tengu slaughtering spree with amusement - but my point was I don't think you have pilots of this calibre who are interested in fighting no-quarter wars against ideological enemies in the context of a formal campaign. In essence we're not really disagreeing again. If Rote had half a dozen Proxays who were motivated by the old ic feud to destroy the Star Fraction - then we'd be in trouble!

I think I can safely say that the majority of RK's pilots (aside from FOVRA) much prefer to operate in null-sec and don't particularly care much for low-sec or high-sec wardec fighting. It usually takes a missioning carrier to spark an interest in roaming into Placid low-sec on most nights.

Yep, that certainly accords with my assessment also.

[Jade Constantine]

Interesting to hear about SF's transition from Providence to Placid, I was a little curious about why you guys moved.  I'd certainly be up for some ideology style interaction, getting a fix on practical applications of free space ideology within the Federal sector, figuring out how compatible Simon and the Star Fraction's visions of the future are, that sort of thing, when I get back home.

Good stuff Simon, hit us up in game and lets see where it goes - Placid is certainly proving and interesting environment ideologically that much is for sure.

[Jade Constantine]

Thank you for the recount and story telling, quite entertaining as i didn't knew all the details, which coincidentally are a point of interest to  the Gallente Militia members.

Moira was part of the GalMil group once, Rote Kapelle and Veto usually exchange fire with us and Rook and Kings just loves hotdropping onto our roaming fleets.....so in the end good to see how things panned out for your group of free captains.

No problems at all Bruno, as I said to Victoria I like to err on the side of telling the whole story so that anyone interested can brief themselves on current events. I do think it will leave Moira in an interesting position in the future should they opt to return to the federal militia one day certainly.

[Invelious]

Are we really still talking about this? >>

Not really, this is more of a overview.

Ohh, if only life were so easy...

It is when you skim through the walls of text. You can generally figure it out after the first sentence.

[Senn Typhos]

Are we really still talking about this? >>

Not really, this is more of a overview.

Ohh, if only life were so easy...

It is when you skim through the walls of text. You can generally figure it out after the first sentence.

My original question is if we were seriously going to spend more time on this. And up there ^ people are still discussing it.

I can figure out the wall o' text, yeah, but that's hardly the point.