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[Seriphyn]

I would like to build on what Casiella said...

I'd also think that, in PF, non-player capsuleers could choose to submit themselves to the law in exchange for some sort of additional resources, like those who remain within the formal navies (cf. The Empyrean Age).

When I read the documents, I don't read them as saying that our characters are legally dead and can have no possessions outside of the CONCORD economy, nor that they literally have no connections back to their original factions (cf. "Her Painted Selves").

I think it is either one of two cases.

1) A capsuleer cuts off ties from their original nation. They become "legally dead" and accountable to CONCORD law and regulation only. Thus, they are only permitted to access the capsuleer areas of listed stations, only permitted to interact with planets as far as the CONCORD Planetary Development Treaty allows them too, and so on. These are the capsuleers that form the enigmatic section of society that is disconnected from everyone else.

2) A capsuleer may choose to submit to the law of their home country to the same degree as an ordinary citizen, but is also accountable to CONCORD as well. By choosing to submit, they will be privy to the same rights and liberties as the other citizens, including the right to own property outside capsuleerdom, the right to vote, the right to participate in any civil process and so on. Similarly, if they break the law, they will be prosecuted the same way as any other citizen, all falling in line with other CONCORD law. This accounts for capsuleers who are regarded as the "elite" of a society, including capsuleer politicians (eg. head of states for 3 of the 4 empires, capsuleer Senators, Holders, corporate CEOs) and military officers. Discretion would be advised still, however, as citizens would regard capsuleers in a myriad of polarized ways (Eg. in the Fed, perhaps either loved or hated, with little in-between. For Caldari, accepted as a dubious but essential part of the State etc)

Number 2 makes sense to me, and I play by this rule, but number 1 can equally apply. Jita 4-4 is a chronicle that identifies a capsuleer that talks about getting in trouble with the station authorities for inappropiate behaviour in the non-capsuleer area of the station. I just don't believe for one second that if a capsuleer walks into a planetside market and goes on a killling spree can they not expect to be prosecuted. The existence of "citizen-capsuleers" across PF further indicates we are not barred from taking this position.

Cf. Rhea and Jaidon Heavenbound.

[Casiella]

Out of curiosity: why the thread split?

[Seriphyn]

Because the other one seemed to focus more on cloning than law.

[Saede Riordan]

I think you've summed it up pretty well Seri, most capsuleers seem to squarely fit into either category 1 or 2, (mostly depending on whether or not they RP )

[lallara zhuul]

Yeah, the first one seems to be the one that roleplayers adopt.

[Lyn Farel]

Well like most RPers I know, I am between 1) and 2). We consider ourselves as capsuleers, living in a capsuleer world with capsuleer laws. Ingame and game mechanisms wise, we are in 1). Still most of the RPers also have ties to their lifes aside from that (it would be pretty dull if not, don't you think ?). Thus they also follow 2) when they are planetside, etc.

[Sinjin Mokk]

I'm about halfway through Emperyan Age.

In the book, we see a few capsuleers that are attached to their respective military.

I don't see any government agreeing to placing something as deadly as capsuleers completely under Concord control. There might be an agreement, similar to providing forces to the U.N. but I'm pretty sure no government, (especially the Amarr and the Gallente) would willingly hamstring themselves by giving Concord complete control on capsuleer affairs. Concord could provide oversight and intel, but don't new players still start off in a "newbie corp" that's tied to their faction and later "graduate" to one of that faction's corporations?

Where do the militias fit in?

I don't see the first part as being viable. The second makes more sense. If, after their "graduation" a capsuleer cuts ties with their parent government, then they're "free." But again, I don't see Concord as having all that much power over them until they break the law.

This whole thing dosen't seem to fit in with established canon. I guess we need CCP to give us a little more info? 

[Seriphyn]

There's a distinction to be made between empire capsuleers and independent ones, but I argue there is nothing stopping us from being empire ones. Again, I point to Rhea Heavenbound as an example of CCP identifying a citizen-capsuleer (albeit retired), acknowledging and adopting them into their storyline.

All the dev actors are capsuleers too, including the navy ones. It seems people are deliberately ignoring these, as well as the old storyline where capsuleers voted in the blaque v souro elections. The chronicle "the elite" has further details

[Seriphyn]

It's all explained here if CCP hasn't retconned it...

In the time since all the races came into contact with each other about 150 years ago interstellar trading has steadily increased, especially in the time since the races began cooperating more closely through institutes such as CONCORD.

Today a certain number of ships are equipped with a capsule, which makes control of the ship much more easy and efficient for the pilot (known as a ‘capsuleer’). Not just anybody can become a capsuleer. Captains need special kind of neural riggings and the training is extremely rigorous and taxing, with only a small fraction of students actually making it through. This makes able capsuleers a unique breed that possesses special status within society. Capsuleers are regarded by the empires as objects of huge prestige, since the number of interstellar traders an empire has in many ways reflects the economic vitality of the empire.

Despite the desire of the empires to keep their capsuleers on a leash, however, things have developed differently. Because of the capsuleers’ exalted status, they’ve managed as the years have passed to make themselves ever more independent from the empires that spawned them. While many capsuleers are still employees of an empire company or organization, the work they do is largely self-controlled. The ever-increasing number of capsuleers entering the market alleviates this problem for the empires and has allowed them to increase the number of capsuleers working for them despite the fact that proportionally more and more of these individuals are going totally independent. The independent ones, however, are setting up their own alliances and nation-states out on the fringe, slowly increasing their power and influence.

The prestige enjoyed by the capsuleer is enormous. Apart from the celebrity status many of them enjoy they receive a number of other privileges. The most important of these is their access to cloning, which is strictly supervised in all the empires. Although some rogue cloning stations are in operation the vast majority of cloning facilities are owned and run by the empires and the requirements for clone ownership are strict and rigorous. Capsuleers are one of very few professions that, due to the nature of their job, possess more or less unrestricted access to clones, although any special clone types must be paid for out of their own pockets.

[Casiella]

[mod]Merged in Seri's post on The Elite. No need for a separate thread in response to the posts in this one.[/mod]

[Alain Colcer]

For me, i understand we are the kind of "non-employee free to do whatever" type of capsuleer, within to the CONCORD regulations.

Capsuleers employed by empires would exist of course, but be outside our normal day to day activities.

Still, there is the option that us "privateers" choose to stay aligned with a certain faction because such thing is a good business practice and provides steady income, perks,  or simply because of morals or ideals of said privateer.

[Vieve]

For me, i understand we are the kind of "non-employee free to do whatever" type of capsuleer, within to the CONCORD regulations.

Capsuleers employed by empires would exist of course, but be outside our normal day to day activities.

Still, there is the option that us "privateers" choose to stay aligned with a certain faction because such thing is a good business practice and provides steady income, perks,  or simply because of morals or ideals of said privateer.

Then there's some of us who've just been amused by taking advantage of other people's suggestions (e.g. 'your character is a piece of classified military technology') and running with them like a little girl who's had way too much sugar.

[Hamish Grayson]

It could be the massive amounts of caffine pills i've ingested, but I'd like to say that this thread and it's participants are awesome.

Concerning player capsuleers and NPC faction capsuleers, what if the difference is access to skillbooks?

Scenario one: Suppose if a Faction capsuleer blows up a squadron of pirate cruisers with his frigate - does CONCORD pay him a bounty like the player under CONCORD jurisdiction would get, or does he get a bit of ribbon from his faction?  Without CONCORD handing him wads of ISK he can’t purchase his own skill books and is limited by what his faction gives him.   In a year’s time while the Player is flying battleships and has billions in his wallet– the faction pilot is still on a Lieutenant’s pay and hasn’t been issued any new skillbooks.

Scenario two:  The early chrons say that what brought about the rise of the player capsuleer was the mating of the capsule and the clone, but what if the secret ingredient is skillbooks?   The SoCT crhons state that their students were selected from all walks of life without any apparent reason - but what if that reason is they were are to use skillbooks? 

Expanding on that, what if it’s possible to have the ability to use skillbooks without necessarily having the ability to interface with a capsule?    Or what if the opposite is also true and there are people who can interface with a capsule but cannot use skillbooks?   

Capsuleers unable to use skillbooks would still be powerful weapons, but wouldn’t  pose the risk of becoming a near uncontrollable monster with access to all your secrets.

[Vieve]

It could be the massive amounts of caffine pills i've ingested, but I'd like to say that this thread and it's participants are awesome.

Concerning player capsuleers and NPC faction capsuleers, what if the difference is access to skillbooks?

Scenario one: Suppose if a Faction capsuleer blows up a squadron of pirate cruisers with his frigate - does CONCORD pay him a bounty like the player under CONCORD jurisdiction would get, or does he get a bit of ribbon from his faction?  Without CONCORD handing him wads of ISK he can’t purchase his own skill books and is limited by what his faction gives him.   In a year’s time while the Player is flying battleships and has billions in his wallet– the faction pilot is still one a Lieutenant’s pay and hasn’t been issued any new skillbooks.

Scenario two:  The early chrons say that what brought about the rise to the player capsuleer was the mating of the capsule and the clone, but what if that isn’t the secret ingredient is the skillbook?   The SoCT crhons state that their students were selected from all walks of life without any apparent reason but what if that reason was they were able to learn from skillbooks?  What if it’s possible to have the ability to use skillbooks without being having the ability to interface with a capsule?    Or what if the opposite is also true and that there are people who can interface with a capsule but cannot use skillbooks?    Capsuleers unable to use skillbooks would still be powerful weapons, but wouldn’t be posse the risk of becoming a near uncontrollable monster with access you all your secrets.

It might be the fact that I haven't had caffeine pills tonight, but I think what you're saying is...

Faction capsuleer = Agent Smith
PC capsuleer = Neo "I know Kung Fu"

[Hamish Grayson]

Edited to hopefully make more sense...