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[Mithfindel]

Surely Khanid were integrated, and Udorians Reclaimed?

Ethnic Udorians don't exist any more, while Khanid do. The Udorians are indistinguishable from True Amarrians. Separating the Udorians from the True Amarrians would be a little bit like trying to separate the pre-historical tribes of Italy from modern Italians. Essentially the only reason it ever gets brought up is because the Empire has great record keeping, especially for its more prominent families. So if 10000 years ago, your ancestor married an Udorian, well, it's written down in the Book of Names or whatever.

Yes, I am aware. More on the likes that Khanid came willingly to become a part of the Amarr Empire, whereas the Udorians had the Amarrians come into their land with a few thousand Paladins and ask nicely if they wanted to be part of the Empire?

Interesting thought on the Khanid there, though: What if the Khanid homeland was never, in fact, fully taken, but instead they joined as allies, had an Amarr heir to lead them via marriage or somesuch and ended up as a protectorate, little by little eroding as a nation and becoming a de facto part of the Empire, even if de jure they would be only in some kind of a personal union. With the Reclaiming of Athra completed, the Emperor claims that the Empire rules over all the known world, and de jure the Empire is the entire planet - even when the Khanid, while ruled by Amarr nobility, are practically still their own nation. This would partially handwave the part why Udorians are essentially assimilated to True Amarr, but Khanid are still Khanid.

[Lyn Farel]

Like for the Ammatar ? New question of the day : can the current Ammatar Mandate status be considered as an earlier version of the Khanid space ?

[lallara zhuul]

No.

Khanid were reclaimed before they got any holdings outside of Athra.

Also Ammatar Mandate exists as a bufferzone between the Empire and the Republic, therefore it even exists. If there would not be a need for it, there would not have been need for the Ammatar. Of course all the PF related to the whole thing is pretty sketchy (bravo CCP.)

[Rodj Blake]

Surely Khanid were integrated, and Udorians Reclaimed?

Ethnic Udorians don't exist any more, while Khanid do. The Udorians are indistinguishable from True Amarrians. Separating the Udorians from the True Amarrians would be a little bit like trying to separate the pre-historical tribes of Italy from modern Italians. Essentially the only reason it ever gets brought up is because the Empire has great record keeping, especially for its more prominent families. So if 10000 years ago, your ancestor married an Udorian, well, it's written down in the Book of Names or whatever.

That's debatable.

Just because there is no Udorian bloodline in the gane, it doesn't follow that there are no Udorians at all.

Indeed, the Tash-Murkon family are still considered to be Udorians rather than Amarrian.

[Lyn Farel]

No.

Khanid were reclaimed before they got any holdings outside of Athra.

Uh so, Mithfindel is wrong ? Do we have any sources clarifying that (if they were allies before reclaimed or not) ?

[Louella Dougans]

I wrote a story which mentioned a difference between True Amarr and Udorians. <.< >.>

[Mithfindel]

No.

Khanid were reclaimed before they got any holdings outside of Athra.

Uh so, Mithfindel is wrong ? Do we have any sources clarifying that (if they were allies before reclaimed or not) ?

Planet Athra is known as Amarr Prime, located in the solar system of Amarr. The current Khanid Kingdom is the holdings of the Khanid Family, and were a part of the Empire proper before king Khanid seceded.  Amarr conquered the entire planet Athra in AD 20544, at which point my theory-crafting would point that the Emperor would declare himself as the ruler of everything. In time, they spread to the stars. In AD 22762 the current king Khanid II seceded from the Empire, that's 2208 years later. So the current Khanid Kingdom is long removed from the Khanid homeland in Amarr Prime.

Edit: To clarify, Khanid Prime is not where the Khanid come from - they come from Athra/Amarr Prime. Khanid Prime is named for the Khanid Family, which itself took its name from the Khanid people. And Khanid Family are True Amarr. And if not confused enough - Khanid is just a nickname of the Khanid, meaning "little lords". Whatever they called themselves hasn't been recorded or the records have not survived to this day.

And another edit: I think the old Khanid bloodline description mentioned them joining willingly. The current status is ambiguous, the current description mentions "the Khanids were swept up by the nation of Amarr and the powerful message of their faith during the height of the original Reclaiming" and that they were "exalted members" of the Amarr society until the Khanid Family seceded. (It is clarified that the majority of Khanid seceded with their royal family.)

[Lyn Farel]

Mh sorry I knew that, I just got confused with your message because I did not read the "What if the Khanid homeland was..." /facepalms

[Louella Dougans]

http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=469703

is a thread with some of the older PF thingies in it.

Mentions that the Khanid were some of the best soldiers in the Empire, long before the Empire went into space.

[Mitara Newelle]

Unfortunately at the moment is seems like those that are in charge of selecting the capsuleer material from the masses have failed phenomenally, most of the capsuleers from the Empire are corrupted by the other factions and their ideologies. Too bad that the Empire reacts so slowly, something will be done about this trend, but it will probably take a few centuries for it to actually come into effect.

OMG, this

[Yoshito Sanders]

That's debatable.

Just because there is no Udorian bloodline in the gane, it doesn't follow that there are no Udorians at all.

Indeed, the Tash-Murkon family are still considered to be Udorians rather than Amarrian.

Like I said, the Tash-Murkon are considered Udorians because they can trace back their family history and say "SEE! YOU'RE UDORIAN!" I can't remember where the quote originates, but the Wiki entry on Udorians preserves it. "The social and physical difference between the True Amarr and Udorians disappeared ages ago, but the traditionalists remember."

In other words, if you put a pureblood True Amarr and someone of Udorian ancestry in the same room, it would be nearly impossible to tell which was which. Maybe through genetic tests or through some minor differences, though it seems unlikely. And, in fact, it's only the "traditionalists" who remember. Granted, there are going to be tons more of them in the Empire than in the other states. But it seems likely to me that, essentially, a genetically pure Udorian bloodline no longer exists. In fact, I'd go as far as to say that the ethnicity only exists insofar as it is used to give social standing to families who don't have Udorian ancestry somewhere.

[Silas Vitalia]

Great thread!

1. The Khanid bloodline were willing volunteers to join the original reclaiming on Athra. Joined willingly, became well-known ground soldiers, and cemented their place in the racial pecking order by helping the True-Amarr conquer Athra. After the Empire gained space, the true-Amarr heir and leader of the Khanid people were given/earned those systems that currently make up the Kingdom.  Much like the Tash-Murkon or Kor-Azor regions.

2. Udorians - from what I can tell the distinction only matters to those nobles that are paying attention.  IE many true-amarr are always going to look down their noses at any Tash-Murkons (for being Udorian, or for buying their way to Heir status).

3. We'd all do well to remember just how crushingly all-encompassing and strict the social hierarchy is in the Empire.  It generally takes decades/centuries for a family to move a few rungs up the ladder relative to their peers.  There are only a few 'fast track' methods to advance. 

The Imperial Navy seems to be one of the only institutions that allows some non-racial advancement up the ranks. I'd still imagine this to be -extremely- slow advancement.  Perhaps your great grandfather was an ensign, did his job well, and perhaps your grandfather got to move up a single rank due to that reputation, etc.  I have to imagine the ni-kunni's of high rank have had family members bearing the torch for many, many generations to get to those positions.   It's nothing remotely like the State or Federation where you could be rewarded and quickly rise based on things like performance.

Merchants/Money:  Tash-Murkons show that with enough time, money, and shrewd maneuvering that one can buy/bribe/marry their way to the top regardless of racial limitations.  I'd like to imagine after Khanid II left, with the chaos at a good chunk of the military suddenly gone and a disastrous effort to take his lands back, that Tash-Murkon donated / wrote some rather large checks to re-fund the navy and get defenses back in order.

Capsuleers? I think the jury is still out. I feel like with regards to any nobility or houses the capsuleers would probably be looked upon as great champions or figureheads, but would be kept under extremely tight leashes.  IE I don't see any ni-kunni capsuleers making a fortune on the market and buying themselves into heir status anytime soon. BUT I could see them buying themselves some minor titles/holdings and starting the ladder grind a few generations ahead of the game.

[Rodj Blake]

No.

Khanid were reclaimed before they got any holdings outside of Athra.

Uh so, Mithfindel is wrong ? Do we have any sources clarifying that (if they were allies before reclaimed or not) ?

Planet Athra is known as Amarr Prime, located in the solar system of Amarr. The current Khanid Kingdom is the holdings of the Khanid Family, and were a part of the Empire proper before king Khanid seceded.  Amarr conquered the entire planet Athra in AD 20544, at which point my theory-crafting would point that the Emperor would declare himself as the ruler of everything. In time, they spread to the stars. In AD 22762 the current king Khanid II seceded from the Empire, that's 2208 years later. So the current Khanid Kingdom is long removed from the Khanid homeland in Amarr Prime.

Edit: To clarify, Khanid Prime is not where the Khanid come from - they come from Athra/Amarr Prime. Khanid Prime is named for the Khanid Family, which itself took its name from the Khanid people. And Khanid Family are True Amarr. And if not confused enough - Khanid is just a nickname of the Khanid, meaning "little lords". Whatever they called themselves hasn't been recorded or the records have not survived to this day.

And another edit: I think the old Khanid bloodline description mentioned them joining willingly. The current status is ambiguous, the current description mentions "the Khanids were swept up by the nation of Amarr and the powerful message of their faith during the height of the original Reclaiming" and that they were "exalted members" of the Amarr society until the Khanid Family seceded. (It is clarified that the majority of Khanid seceded with their royal family.)

It's important to remember that the Khanid family are Amarrian rather than Khanid.

[Victoria Stecker]

It's important to remember that the Khanid family are Amarrian rather than Khanid.

For now, yes. <.< >.>

[Silas Vitalia]

It's important to remember that the Khanid family are Amarrian rather than Khanid.

For now, yes. <.< >.>

If they retcon this.... sigh