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[Seriphyn]

(decided to reword it)

I think that, the invasion of Luminaire was comparable to 9/11, but having to dig around in PF to really grasp the "scale" of this is another issue with how CCP present their fiction. A newbie won't have no idea why the Gallente and Caldari are fighting, so perhaps pushing the event as this sort of 9/11, catastrophic event that traumatized an entire nation will be much better at giving people a better point of reference for why exactly the Gallente and Caldari are fighting.

Not sure, there might have been some cases people have said IC and in RP that "Gallente and Caldari shouldn't be fighting!", then replied with "But they killed millions of us when they invaded Luminaire, and have a titan blahblah", with a resounding "o" as a reply.

 

[Ammentio Oinkelmar]

I think that, the invasion of Luminaire was comparable to 9/11, but having to dig around in PF to really grasp the "scale" of this is another issue with how CCP present their fiction. A newbie won't have no idea why the Gallente and Caldari are fighting, so perhaps pushing the event as this sort of 9/11, catastrophic event that traumatized an entire nation will be much better at giving people a better point of reference for why exactly the Gallente and Caldari are fighting.

The proposed scale and public reaction might very well be plausible here. However, there are examples of franchises which have been ready to sacrifice the consistency of their game worlds to avoid this analogy and the possible related negative response. So maybe it's not good to push this idea to newbies. Maybe it would be better just to keep repeating the old arguments about the Gallentean supremacism and orbital bombardments.

[orange]

So, there is a problem with trying to push the Invasion of Luminaire/Liberation of Caldari Prime as comparable to terrorist attacks on the US in 2001, the terrorist did not occupy New York for 3+ years.

Also, the terrorist attacks of 2001 are not actually at the forefront of the minds of the majority of the electorate or elected most of the time (arguably even by 2004 other "issues" had overtaken them).   Would the Gallente similarly push it to the back of their minds (if it was comparable to the attacks)?  I would think yes.

No, the IoL/LoCP is not the Federation's September 11, 2001.

I think it is more like the exist of Israel today or West Berlin in the Cold War.  This enclaves of "the enemy" represent a constant reminder of the enemy's existence and the threat they posse to the "defending" society.

[Valdezi]

All Fed/Caldari OOC arm wrestling aside, there's an extent to which Seriphyn's analogy is sound.

From a Federal perspective, I feel that the occupation of Cal Prime would have an impact on the Federal psyche similar to that of 9/11 on the US - to create an atmosphere of nationalist fervour and fear, and I think that Seri has been trying to play on some of this with his 'Black Eagle' RP.

The amount of time having passed now could almost create a post 2005 effect when Bush's popularity started to plummet after 'Mission Accomplished' and other events.

Trying to remain apolitical here.

[Kyoko Sakoda]

/facepalm

[Valdezi]

Huh?

[Mithfindel]

The invasion of Luminaire makes pretty much as much sense as the Finnish Defence Force taking Viipuri (now Vyborg, Russia) by a surprise strike. (Except the issue where the Caldari Navy is a whole lot more prepared to fight wars than the FDF.) What makes the comparison fit quite well is that Vyborg is a bit over 100 km from St. Petersburg, the second-largest city in Russia and the former capital of the Russian Empire.

[Akrasjel Lanate]

/facepalm

[Seriphyn]

When I say 9/11, I say that the feelings and reactions to it is similar, not the actual act itself being a terrorist one. Let me quote directly from the State of the Cluster document.

The dominant emotion among the citizens of the Federation is confusion. There are a lot of questions to which they want answers – from their leaders, from their military, and from themselves. How did this happen? Why did we not see it coming? How is it that we couldn't stop it? Are we really that soft and weak and defenseless? Who can we trust? What should we do? What should we feel?

Some blame Foiritan personally and some blame the political leadership as a whole, though few truly understand what happened or why. Others lay the responsibility at the feet of the military, trying to ignore their own complicity in the shortage of resources and personnel. Some blame their fellow citizens – particularly those of other races, occupations, or walks of life – often due just as much to older and deeper misgivings than to the current situation. There are a very few who blame themselves.

But all of them curse the Caldari - them and their barbaric leader Heth.

Then, a well-executed operation into a foreign country to extract the Federation's Most Wanted (Anvent Eturrer) and then execute him in front of a "party patriotic" crowd on the Fed's cultural capital.

[Mizhara]

/facepalm

[Seriphyn]

Hold on, why are people being unreasonable for? If you're going to /facepalm, then EXPLAIN why the reactions of the American public after 9/11 is NOT the same as the reactions of the Gallentean public after losing Caldari Prime.

[Laria Raven]

I'm a little unconvinced about the utility and tastefulness of equating relatively recent RL events with fictional in-game ones. In particular, there's so many differences in circumstances and background and surrounding culture that I think it's a bad analogy.

The world of EVE is a much bloodier one than ours, and I would suspect that our characters are more hardened to war and bloodshed than many of the players (self certainly included!). The tides of invasion, occupation and revolt are ones that wash over many many people in EVE, and that can't help but affect outlook.

Having said that, the Malkalen Incident and the occupation of Luminaire VII were, from my understanding, events that sent shockwaves far and wide. I don't think it's necessary to draw exact comparisons for people to find incidents in their own experience that have similar impacts, if not in exactly analogous situations.

[Chowda]

Any major military attack and occupation of an entire city throughout history has more in common with the invasion than 9/11.     

Since we also declared war on Germany the next day, Pearl Harbor would be the most appropriate analogy to the Federation's response after the invasion. 

[Laerise [PIE]]

So now instead of comparing the (arguably genocidal) firebombing of Dresden, Hamburg and many other german cities during the second world war you compare 9/11 to a full blown war with hundreds of thousands of casualties?

Sorry Seriphyn, but you should really take a step back and do some hard thinking on that part 

[Lyn Farel]

You missed the point Laerise. Maybe I still have difficulties to see where Seri is going with that comparison, he was only comparing the people reaction after the 9/11 to the one after the caldari attack. The similarities are in the fact nobody was expecting that, and they were deeply shocked (and still are). In a time of peace.

WW2 carpet bombings on german and english cities are a totally different thing, taking place in a war. I am not sure we are comparing "genocides" here.