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[Benjamin Shepherd]

Gross, also it's Osama.

[Ember Vykos]

Interesting. The figurehead is dead, but this doesn't really change anything.

Apparently you don't work in the community. This changes EVERYTHING.

No I don't work in the community, and perhaps you are right. I suppose only time will tell if it does or not. From my POV(granted it is probably a bit pessimistic or at least will be viewed that way by many) it does not. Extremists will still exist, people will still be paranoid and afraid, someone will take his place and things will continue as they are. We got a bit of revenge which serves as a morale boost, but we really only cut off one of the heads of a many headed hydra and I don't see that as changing the situation a whole lot.

[Boma Airaken]

Gross, also it's Osama.

Actually no, it isn't. You apparently have had slightly less training in Arabic than I have. I don't know how to make the symbols for the letters. Translating it is a fucking nightmare. Usama is as close to correct as it gets.

[Benjamin Shepherd]

At least everyone can agree that it's much nicer to breathe knowing the royal wedding isn't going to be mentioned ever again.

[Boma Airaken]

Interesting. The figurehead is dead, but this doesn't really change anything.

Apparently you don't work in the community. This changes EVERYTHING.

No I don't work in the community, and perhaps you are right. I suppose only time will tell if it does or not. From my POV(granted it is probably a bit pessimistic or at least will be viewed that way by many) it does not. Extremists will still exist, people will still be paranoid and afraid, someone will take his place and things will continue as they are. We got a bit of revenge which serves as a morale boost, but we really only cut off one of the heads of a many headed hydra and I don't see that as changing the situation a whole lot.

Maybe you should work in the community, as you just called it right. This is going to do NOTHING but escalate things. You get that. But things escalating means major change. And not the hopey changey things the pretender in chief promised us.

[Aria Jenneth]

This is going to do NOTHING but escalate things.

About that, we'll see. ObL (or UbL, if you like; perhaps you'd like to give Arabic lessons to the international press corps?) made an excellent spokesman and a first-rate rallying point. And yes, the willingness of his movement to look on death in battle as "martyrdom" is awkward.

But even accepting all of that, I'm not sure I buy your argument.

Actually, I'm pretty sure I don't.

ObL was at war with the United States. He declared it before we really took him seriously, and then proved he was serious with four planeloads of innocents and a heaping helping of jet fuel. Al Qaeda is the absolute last organization able to argue that attacks by U.S. forces on its leaders are  "attacks on Islam." They get more ground out of civilian-killing anti-Taliban drone strikes than they will out of this on that front.

As far as motivating the troops? Okay, yeah, ObL has "gone to paradise" to hang out with his crop of virgins, but at the same time it's pretty clear that they did not actually want the man to get shot. They'd successfully kept him hidden from the most powerful single nation on Earth for close to a decade-- them thar be some serious bragging rights. But we caught up to him in the end, so he's looking slightly less blessed by God, now.

Incidentally, failing threes, nice round numbers are handy for religiously-significant matters, as a rule. From a "our cause is favored by God" angle, they'd have been vastly better off with "over ten years" than a sort of flaccid "just short of ten years."

Al Qaeda's most serious threat has never come so much from a few die-hards (dangerous, yes, but die-hards can be killed): it has come from its capacity to look like a force of righteousness on the "Arab street"-- to attract the young and eager, a virtually boundless source of recruits.

Martyrdom or no, that quasi-mythic status has just taken a hit. ObL did not have a bullet-proof vest granted by God. ObL did not have God's hand forever shielding him from infidel eyes. ObL did not even have a nice, appealingly-round number of years of safety before getting offed.

Of course they'll cry "martyr!" --but will the one who takes his place be able to speak in as dangerously effective a voice? Of course they'll try something. --but will they be able to come up with anything they wouldn't have eagerly done under ObL?

I doubt it. Competent motivated charismatic visionaries with a gift for management are not that freaking common, folks, certainly not serving any single cause, and I wish Al Qaeda all the ill luck in the world in replacing their dear leader.

Furthermore, this comes at a moment when Al Qaeda's star is on the wane. The wave of pro-democratic uprisings across the Middle East may result in all manner of outcomes, but its present faces appear to have less to do with Islamic militancy than at any point in the last decade. Maybe two. That's an important sign: the "Arab street" has, at least for now, an outlet for its frustrations outside of attacks on foreigners, and the educated Arab moderates have found a voice.

The question is whether it will last. If it does, the "martyrdom" of the Qaeda "figurehead" may have come at just the wrong moment for it to have the hoped-for-by-terrorists effect. Even if it does not, your "intensification" argument seems far-fetched.

We've been accidentally bombing wedding parties in the Middle East for ten years now. We've done the "pre-emptive" invasion of an MWD-less nation. We've done Guantanamo. We've done Abu Grahaib (sp?). We've done the idiot American general nattering on about "my god is stronger than your god."

From an Arab emotional standpoint, we've been doing our worst for ages.

Ah-- also, about President Obama?

I don't love every last thing the man's done. He's far too much beholden to the constructs of law known as corporations. He goes for moderation even when the other side's arguments verge on the fraudulent-- even when they're well over that verge.

But I respect his caution, and his mindfulness. What he did here was what he should have-- the only thing he could have without validating every "the government is keeping ObL alive because ..." conspiracy theory ever.

And he is a much-needed bulwark at a time when the Right has gone mad. Just because I think it would be great fun to watch you Libertarians out there try to keep the country functional doesn't mean I actually want to see it happen.

Four more years. Just try to stop us.

[scagga]

I wonder when and what evidence will be submitted to the public domain.  Probably pictures similar to those provided for Uday and Qusay (sp.?), Saddam's sons who met a similar fate.

[Boma Airaken]

This is going to do NOTHING but escalate things.

About that, we'll see. ObL (or UbL, if you like; perhaps you'd like to give Arabic lessons to the international press corps?) made an excellent spokesman and a first-rate rallying point. And yes, the willingness of his movement to look on death in battle as "martyrdom" is awkward.

But even accepting all of that, I'm not sure I buy your argument.

Actually, I'm pretty sure I don't.

ObL was at war with the United States. He declared it before we really took him seriously, and then proved he was serious with four planeloads of innocents and a heaping helping of jet fuel. Al Qaeda is the absolute last organization able to argue that attacks by U.S. forces on its leaders are  "attacks on Islam." They get more ground out of civilian-killing anti-Taliban drone strikes than they will out of this on that front.

As far as motivating the troops? Okay, yeah, ObL has "gone to paradise" to hang out with his crop of virgins, but at the same time it's pretty clear that they did not actually want the man to get shot. They'd successfully kept him hidden from the most powerful single nation on Earth for close to a decade-- them thar be some serious bragging rights. But we caught up to him in the end, so he's looking slightly less blessed by God, now.

Incidentally, failing threes, nice round numbers are handy for religiously-significant matters, as a rule. From a "our cause is favored by God" angle, they'd have been vastly better off with "over ten years" than a sort of flaccid "just short of ten years."

Al Qaeda's most serious threat has never come so much from a few die-hards (dangerous, yes, but die-hards can be killed): it has come from its capacity to look like a force of righteousness on the "Arab street"-- to attract the young and eager, a virtually boundless source of recruits.

Martyrdom or no, that quasi-mythic status has just taken a hit. ObL did not have a bullet-proof vest granted by God. ObL did not have God's hand forever shielding him from infidel eyes. ObL did not even have a nice, appealingly-round number of years of safety before getting offed.

Of course they'll cry "martyr!" --but will the one who takes his place be able to speak in as dangerously effective a voice? Of course they'll try something. --but will they be able to come up with anything they wouldn't have eagerly done under ObL?

I doubt it. Competent motivated charismatic visionaries with a gift for management are not that freaking common, folks, certainly not serving any single cause, and I wish Al Qaeda all the ill luck in the world in replacing their dear leader.

Furthermore, this comes at a moment when Al Qaeda's star is on the wane. The wave of pro-democratic uprisings across the Middle East may result in all manner of outcomes, but its present faces appear to have less to do with Islamic militancy than at any point in the last decade. Maybe two. That's an important sign: the "Arab street" has, at least for now, an outlet for its frustrations outside of attacks on foreigners, and the educated Arab moderates have found a voice.

The question is whether it will last. If it does, the "martyrdom" of the Qaeda "figurehead" may have come at just the wrong moment for it to have the hoped-for-by-terrorists effect. Even if it does not, your "intensification" argument seems far-fetched.

We've been accidentally bombing wedding parties in the Middle East for ten years now. We've done the "pre-emptive" invasion of an MWD-less nation. We've done Guantanamo. We've done Abu Grahaib (sp?). We've done the idiot American general nattering on about "my god is stronger than your god."

From an Arab emotional standpoint, we've been doing our worst for ages.

Ah-- also, about President Obama?

I don't love every last thing the man's done. He's far too much beholden to the constructs of law known as corporations. He goes for moderation even when the other side's arguments verge on the fraudulent-- even when they're well over that verge.

But I respect his caution, and his mindfulness. What he did here was what he should have-- the only thing he could have without validating every "the government is keeping ObL alive because ..." conspiracy theory ever.

And he is a much-needed bulwark at a time when the Right has gone mad. Just because I think it would be great fun to watch you Libertarians out there try to keep the country functional doesn't mean I actually want to see it happen.

Four more years. Just try to stop us.

Wow. I am rolling like a pig in shit happy now that I know that there is NO difference between you IC and OOC. Fucking beautiful. Obama cautious and mindful? Tell that to the dollar.

[Aria Jenneth]

Wow. I am rolling like a pig in shit happy now that I know that there is NO difference between you IC and OOC. Fucking beautiful. Obama cautious and mindful? Tell that to the dollar.

There's a lot of me in her. But then, there'd have to be.

When I was playing a "genuine damsel in distress as genuine menace" in Neverwinter Nights, there was a lot of me in that character, too. Never mind that I'm not exactly tiny, cute, frail, female, translucent, tortured in any meaningful way, or firmly devoted to the cause of Chaotic Evil.

We cannot create what is not of ourselves.

As for the dollar, there's more than one school of thought on economic theory-- none of which have been made happy by this administration, if I remember, but the way I look at it that's because Obama has done too little to correct the failures that led to this last economic near-collapse. If the deregulation fanatics ever get full control again, I'll have to consider whether I'd be better off watching the results from a safe distance.

Like Mars. Apparently private colonization plans are in the sprouting stage. Who knows? Maybe we'll do better in a biosphere we build ourselves.

[Saede Riordan]

I like to think, that if nothing else, this will give us closure as a nation, and allow the more right wing elements to stop crying for blood and guns and violence. 'Justice' will have been served, and we can all go on with our lives.

Where does that put our relations with the rest of the Arab world? I'm not sure. The next few months are going to be...telling.

[Seriphyn]

* Seriphyn puts on his RN cap and puffs from his pipe

Good show I say, what what.

[Aria Jenneth]

I like to think, that if nothing else, this will give us closure as a nation, and allow the more right wing elements to stop crying for blood and guns and violence.

God, don't I wish. A comment from a military-minded young man around the start of the war in Afghanistan, though, sticks in my mind:

"I don't hope it's over quickly. Do you know why I don't? It's because if it's over quickly, that means we didn't get every last one of the bastards."

I might be paraphrasing a little; it was at a 9/11 vigil in late September 2001. Also, grimly, there's a segment of the (especially the religious) right wing that really does believe this is a war against Islam itself. We can expect that segment to fall silent about a year after the last bullet flies, and not before.

It might make it harder for them to argue that we Dems are "soft on terror," despite increased drone strikes, etc., though. 'Course, just because an argument is hard to make doesn't mean the Right won't make it, these days. See, e.g., Kenya, and claims that Obama was born there; claims that Obama is a muslim; claims that Obama is a socialist (or even a liberal, speaking as an actual leftist, myself: the man's a moderate, much like Clinton).

'Justice' will have been served, and we can all go on with our lives.

Ah-- now in this case, it really kinda hasn't.

... Well, maybe a drop of it. We DID get the bastard, after all, but it seems kinda hard to say that this one life balances all those others (and I'm not just talking about at the Twin Towers).

So, a small thing. Maybe important, though.

Where does that put our relations with the rest of the Arab world? I'm not sure. The next few months are going to be...telling.

Oh, very much /signed.

Fun bit o' history we're living through, no?

[Saede Riordan]

'Justice' will have been served, and we can all go on with our lives.

Ah-- now in this case, it really kinda hasn't.

hence the 'quotes' around justice.

Where does that put our relations with the rest of the Arab world? I'm not sure. The next few months are going to be...telling.

Oh, very much /signed.

Fun bit o' history we're living through, no?

Oh yes. I hope I survive it to see the future we build for ourselves and our children. I hope its one I want to bring children into the world in. I guess time will tell.

[Aria Jenneth]

'Justice' will have been served, and we can all go on with our lives.

Ah-- now in this case, it really kinda hasn't.

hence the 'quotes' around justice.

Well ... yeah. But I don't think even the people who have spent the last decade crying for blood think that this was complete justice.

Maybe especially not them.

I hope I survive it to see the future we build for ourselves and our children. I hope its one I want to bring children into the world in. I guess time will tell.

Again, pretty much /signed. Though without the personally-bringing-children-into-the-world bit.

[Mathra Hiede]

While we are indeed living in a particular volatile and tumultuous part of history, I know personally that its hugely worrying to see what is apparently a 'crescendo' of turmoil and instability since the market-crash.
We have seen entire countries plunged into civil disputes, civil wars, enourmous and hugely devastating natural disasters etc etc.

And yet people continue to be frustratingly narrow minded and hard to understand and deal with (No-one on this forum - I have much respect for you all and greatly enjoy your thoughts and ideals) to such an extent as I worry that there wont be time for reasonable and stable people to rise and bring back some semblance of balance.

Now, especially the US scares the everloving shit out of me, reason?
a) As an Australian we are LITERALLY caught in the middle, we have China and Asia as our biggest and most powerful neighbour, but we are intrinsically loyal to Britain/United States, have always been and likely always will.
b) From (a) when the US pushes China and China gets frisky the Australians feel the pinch, and we walk a damned small rope to keep from being seriously hurt.
c) If the US becomes more unstable and begins to unravel, which is unfortunately possible - you have the biggest and currently (while debatable) most powerful country in the world on a downhill slide, Thats not cool.

While I could keep on going, and its not just my country I worry for as I see the need for us as a planet to simply try to get along a bit better, I hope I made the point.

Oh, and huzzah for Bin-Laden being 'offed but c*** the world has alot of issues to deal with, Bin-Laden is now sliding backwards in priority while the rest of the world rears its head.