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[Mizhara]

It's okay, Ulph. The subject is complex and rather wide-spanning, so it's almost inevitable to draw on comparisons and similarities to rather... nasty shit, to put it on a point. Especially when it's looked at from the outside of it all.

But one thing that Havo said is fairly... controversial, even inside the community. Is submission a gift? It all comes down to definitions and semantics, but I've come to the point where I say it is not a gift. Bear with me for a few moments while I try to explain what I mean... I may not quite succeed.

I'm a Switch. That means both the D and s side of things are a part of me. Let's focus entirely on the submission bit for now, though. If I were to 'give my submission' to a D, it'd imply that it's separate from me. That it isn't a direct part of me, and that from that point onwards, it was entirely in the D's hands. That the D can then give it to someone else if S/He gets bored, or whatever. And again, that it is separate from me.

To me, this sounds... not quite right. When I submit, it is me. I submit to the Dominant as a gesture of respect, trust and so on. Argh, I've written eight different sentences by now, and backspaced them all, because I can't really explain it.

It probably just comes down to how you define the word 'gift'. To me, it's not what my submission is. That is a part of me. For someone who is fully submissive, it is an even more pronounced part of them. The gift I give is the trust, respect and dedication, as they are somewhat separate from who I am. The submission? It's simply a part of who I am.

And that goes vice versa, of course. The act of Dominance is not a gift either, for the same reasons. It's a part of who they are.

[Havohej]

Is submission a gift?

Do you choose to give it or is it taken from you without your consent?

Something given freely is a: ____

If I were to 'give my submission' to a D, it'd imply that it's separate from me. That it isn't a direct part of me

Maybe a bit of language barrier here; there's no 'separation' between you and your actions, that's not what I mean when I say it's a 'gift'.  To 'give' your submission doesn't disconnect it from you - it IS you.  And naturally, like you said, it goes both ways; a sub just gives considerably more.

[Zuzanna Alondra]

Gorean relationships -  um… *hides in a corner*  I ain’t google searching sexual  terms I don’t know – so I’m going to ask all nice like openly incase someone else was too shy to ask as well…
Vikarion – I have to say thanks for being willing to step out like you have.  It’s really neat to see a completely *different* idea for sexual preference out there.

And of course, one can express total trust in the context of a relationship in many different ways. Sounds like D/s is one way, and that's great for those folks, but I'd venture to say that a man who trusts the daily caregiving of his children (and sometimes his parents) to his wife is placing huge, and generally well-deserved, trust in her. And a woman in an old-fashioned, traditional relationship who chooses to 'stay home' and take care of the house and kids while her husband goes to work places a lot of trust in him, too.

In other words, that sort of relationship might no longer be the cultural standard in some parts of the world, and for good reasons, but that doesn't make it bad. (My wife and I seem to like it.)

I don’t know how the hell she does it – I get SOOOO bored.  I want to be home with Lisa while she’s little – but I want to go back to work SOOOO bad.  I miss the people, the numbers and the feeling of accomplishment.  I kind of get the accomplishment when I get the house clean but it isn’t the same.  Mildly off topic I know, but do make sure you spend some time with her without the baby around so she gets adult company.  It’s more important then you know.

Though I have to chuckle and say; “Well deserved trust..”  more like “Well demanded” – I told him I was breast feeding and so I had to stay home with her and that was that.  Assertiveness lessons are kicking in finally eh?

Back on topic – I actually have a mild thought with the term vanilla myself.  A lot of folks that say they are vanilla may not be as much as they think.  If they never talk to other folks they don’t know their preferences are different then the norm and assume they are vanilla.  Also it depends on the crowd you are in.  Among you guys I assume hearing someone say they are into erotic role-play in the bedroom is pretty tame.

But if I said I was into erotic role-play with a lady from church – I’d be a freak.  Why would I ever want to pretend my husband isn’t my husband or be forward like that?  A woman should be humble and meek.  Mind you this isn’t what the Church itself teaches - it’s just the mindset that comes forth.  We all know how wonderfully regular and faithful to the Church I tend to be… I be Jack.
The point still standing that even vanilla is not so well defined.  Maybe I’m vanilla with the little cookie dough bits in it?

[Arnulf Ogunkoya]

In the Sharp novels by Bernard Cornwall, I was particularly struck by some of the choices facing the camp women.

This is some of the most stomach-turningly disgusting misogynistic shit I've ever heard of... thank you for pointing out an author for me to not read.  <snip>

The plight of camp followers is a very small part of those stories and not one that I recall as being depicted in any sort of rape fantasy way. It's more a reflection on the desperation of people caught in a warzone. Also, as I recall, the main hero characters are slightly atypical for their times and not inclined to take advantage of people in such a position.

[Inara Subaka]

I'm sorry, that was a nonsequiter from a combination of what Inara posted, and something one of her characters said IC about always having choices, even if the choice was shackles or death.

I can see why the parallel was drawn, and I'm sorry that the conversations took place when they did to cause the confusion.  Here I'm just talking about D/s and willing submission, that character was talking about other things altogether (same set of rails, just a different train).


As Miz so eloquently pointed out, it's hard to define what submission is. It's not separate from you, however you are still 'gifting' it to the D. Effectively, you are giving yourself to them at some level.

Gorean relationships -  um… *hides in a corner*  I ain’t google searching sexual  terms I don’t know – so I’m going to ask all nice like openly incase someone else was too shy to ask as well…

24/7 slavery to another person, usually in a sexual nature. Most that I've heard of don't use the practice of safe words. Based on a book series (that I can't remember the name of) that is about an "opposite earth" with a very different progression than Earth itself, resulting in a very different society and emphasis on importance.

Back on topic – I actually have a mild thought with the term vanilla myself.  A lot of folks that say they are vanilla may not be as much as they think.  If they never talk to other folks they don’t know their preferences are different then the norm and assume they are vanilla.  Also it depends on the crowd you are in.  Among you guys I assume hearing someone say they are into erotic role-play in the bedroom is pretty tame.

But if I said I was into erotic role-play with a lady from church – I’d be a freak.  Why would I ever want to pretend my husband isn’t my husband or be forward like that?  A woman should be humble and meek.  Mind you this isn’t what the Church itself teaches - it’s just the mindset that comes forth.  We all know how wonderfully regular and faithful to the Church I tend to be… I be Jack.
The point still standing that even vanilla is not so well defined.  Maybe I’m vanilla with the little cookie dough bits in it?

Ironically, not quite. I'm currently living in a very conservative area, and any mentions of something outside the 'norm' would be looked upon as hedonistic and I'm a horribly corrupted person.

And I'd say that church isn't the place to be discussing bedroom antics .

[Vikarion]

Thanks for the replies, Miz, Havo, others. I have some thoughts, but currently too tired to write them down.

I'm such a tease. 

[Zuzanna Alondra]

And I'd say that church isn't the place to be discussing bedroom antics .

You'd be amazed.

[Casiella]

Depends on the context as well. Without waylaying the thread too much, I can say that I've had a number of discussions with young men or, occasionally, young couples about sex. Though not about BDSM, I should add!

[Koronakesh]

Make yourself known. I've gotten the impression from the various OOC channels in-game that there's a bunch of ya here, so why not make yourself known a little?

Got a feeling that while the fact I'm involved with BDSM-esque RL sexual encounters won't surprise anyone, some details of it just might.

As a warning, this post actually contains an abnormal amount of ::effort:: and honesty in my ::words::. It's a rare occurrence from me. Enjoy. Additionally, if you (the moderators) feel it to be a violation of the first part of Rule 5 (Do not post anything illegal under U.S. law), then by all means nuke it, however I feel a degree of background is needed to provide a proper explanation.

So here we go. I'm a Dom. I like being in control. I know precisely what I enjoy doing. I'm a member of Humiliation Nation, the motto of which you can see on Kellana's bio.

I first became involved with the scene when I was sixteen. I'd had things with a couple girls beforehand, but neither really worked, and any sexual activity left me more dissatisfied than anything. But, come my 16th summer, I'd gotten involved with an older woman of 38.

Obviously, I kept details of this relationship private and away from family, and am not going to discuss here the specifics of how it happened. "Jane", as She'll be referred to, ended up being the single most influential part of my life so far. Over the course of the next year, it was about as close to a 24/7 M/s relationship as we could make it. The catch being, She was the one who was in full control. I happily wore Her collar whenever I had the opportunity to.

I'm not interested in hearing about how She broke any statutory laws or took advantage of me due to my age. As far as I'm concerned, She didn't. Suffice it to say, though, She let me go after a year, but the particular habits and daily routines I learned during that time with Her are still deeply ingrained in me even now, and probably forever will be. Everything from what to do when waking up right up to going to sleep was and still is influenced by the control She established.

I don't regret any part of it, though every relationship since then has been with me entirely in the controlling position, which I'm quite comfortable with. I'll never feel anywhere near right being subservient to any other person. I've not talked to Her since the breakup, but I still live with the effects and perfectly remember the last thing she told me.

"The human mind is the single greatest toy you'll ever find, Max. Have fun out there."

[Mizhara]

Thank you Koro.

[dibblebill]

So I've been dabbling in the D/s scene myself. I want to get more into it, I have the friends, but for now, I've only really done some small stuff. But its something that does interest me, heavily, and I've been doing alot of reading on it, including other things, like sharps and blood play.

[Mizhara]

Just always keep in mind, sharps and bloodplay is way over on the dangerous side of the BDSM scene. Never accept that kind of play from someone inexperienced. Make sure you get references, and reassurances of the skill and knowledge from the one doing it.

Also make sure you have read everything, and been very well educated on the subject before starting it in practice. It's one of the things that almost certainly can turn very dangerous when done incorrectly.

/paramedic 0

[Kohiko Sun]

*peeks into the thread*

Hi. My name is Kohiko, and I'm trapped - for the moment - in that ultra-conservative part of America called "The Bible Belt". So... blorg. I will tell you stuff.

I'm bi. Which does not mean I'm ready to jump anyone at any time. I've had friends I've known for years say things like, "Bi just means you want sex all the time." I've offered to include other people in the bedroom with my ex-husband if he wanted it, but we never did. Not something I was wholly comfortable with, but it was for him. (He just preferred to have other people in our bedroom behind my back while I was at work.)

My you and I share a same-sex relationship. (Ko's straight, or at the most bi-curious - I don't know. I've never put any real thought into it. I'm too busy trying to figure out how to afford PLEXes without burning out on L4 missions 23/7.) I've heard mothers warning their children about us just because we've held hands in public; it's not like we flaunt it and make out in the canned foods aisle of the grocery store or anything close to it. It's kind of funny, really. Guys may snicker, grin, and whisper, "Giggity giggity," to each other, but flip 'em off if it's needed, and they usually get the picture. Women... some will tell you as loudly as they can how ashamed you should be; some will hound you and keep tsking just loud enough to be heard. It's like you betrayed some sacred, personal vow you made with them. Roll it back a few years to where it would be acceptable, and they'd be the ones throwing the rocks and leading the charge to run us out of town. (And, it's no fun when your mother doesn't realize that it hurts to hear, "I was hoping to have some grandbabies from you, but I guess I won't get to see that now," in the middle of a phone call to tell you your sister's pregnant.)

*waves to the other paramedic*

[Mizhara]

Sounds like a bit of bravery involved in your choice of being open about these things. I am impressed, and honestly a bit disgusted by how regressive and morally backwards parts of our society still is. One day, however... it's going to be far less so. We will be able to walk down the streets, even if everyone knows who and what we are in private... and won't get the 'you are less' stares.

I sometimes enjoy it immensely when some stranger around me gets a glimpse of the lifestyle. When I in a submissive position in a relationship answer the phone with 'Yes Master/Mistress' or show other things that can be... indicative of it. Especially when they don't understand. When they only recognize that here is something unknown. Something that's taboo. That's wild, wicked, dangerous and frightening to them. And when you recognize that in their eyes and expression, and just smile as you leave them behind in the day to day life... knowing that their minds have started working furiously, as their imagination leads them down a road of either shameful excitement or simple curiosity and even pleasure.

Or when they understand all too well... and you see anger in them. And you just smile and continue on with life.

One day, that'll end. People willing to speak up, and remove the taboos in semi-public places like this are part of the effort towards that end. I am honestly proud of everyone who speaks up here. Thank you all.

[Casiella]

It can be really hard for those of us from the same sorts of areas as Kohiko to leave behind that mentality, even when we want to.

My great-grandmother, God rest her soul, came into this world in 1903. She grew up on an onion farm outside a small town in north Texas, now a Dallas suburb but at the time just a farming community.

For the first 40-some-odd years of her life, she had the "fact" of her superiority inculcated into her. She and the people that looked like her never doubted their superiority over people whose skin absorbed more light and had broader features. The racism built into the culture here is legendary (in the worst way).

Then, in the 1940s, she began to change. She "got religion", as we'd say, and tried to leave those attitudes behind. She wanted to see everyone around her as her brother or sister. The 1940s didn't exactly breed racial tolerance either, but she tried.

We knew she never fully left her old attitudes behind, but she tried every damn day until Alzheimer's took her soul and she died in 2002. We could hear it in her voice when she smiled and told us how happy she was to have lots of black folks in her church: she wanted to convince herself as much as she wanted to convince us.

I still struggle with this, not in the same terms (she'd be proud of how far our family has come, with several of us happily married across racial lines) but in regards to gender, sexuality, and the whole complicated bits of life there.

My sister came out last year and married her long-time female roommate. I won't lie: that turned out to present incredible challenges for everyone in our family, including me for sure. I really truly don't concern myself with the gender of, say, my co-workers, but when it's my own sister, I felt differently. I'm not proud of that, and I'm not holding myself up as any sort of good example. We both have a lot of baggage there, and I can't even begin to imagine how hard she's had to struggle with this over the years. Life is complicated for everybody.

Please don't get disgusted by people who still struggle with the questions raised here. Help them, even if it takes years of love and patience.