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[lallara zhuul]

Uhhh.

There seems to be this odd concept that there is something noble about being a barbarian.

Being uncivilized is just plain stupid.

The OPs quote quite clearly showed that there is no paradise anywhere in the cluster, things are even worse in the lawless space. Instead of having any kind of hierarchy you are constantly under the assault of the raiding hordes that happen to come by.

The 1% that GoGo would be referring to are the sociopath/psychopath demographic.

Not a regular joe feeling betrayed by their own government.

[Graelyn]

Do the Guristas share the homophobia of the State?

Judging by the fact that one of the four Guristas officers is widely known to be gay, no:

Peunato, an extremely competent pilot, was forced out of the Caldari Navy when he revealed he was gay. Since joining the Guristas, Peunato has been instrumental in expanding their power and influence. Threat level: Deadly

1. Re-read the story of Fatal and The Rabbit with this in mind.

2. Have 'AHA!' moment.

3. Understand why they hate capsuleers so much (one of the two is dead because of us).

4. See Sansha/Guristas standings.

5. Have second 'AHA!' moment.

[Casiella]

Lallara, what you observe results from (hopefully) a difference between what we believe as players and what our characters believe.

Your statement about barbarians versus civilization rings true with me, of course, on many levels. But the fact remains that sometimes the romantic ideal of taking up armed struggle against one's oppressors becomes strong enough that we want to play it out in a game. So new players become attracted to the various 'outlaw' play styles within EVE. Some subset of them then also have an interest in roleplay, including factions like the Guristas, Angel Cartel, Sansha Nation, or just plain capsuleer pirates.

I mean, by definition, none of us here on this site (or nearly none) belong to the one percenter club IRL -- but that doesn't mean that nobody in the EVE fictional universe will be.

[orange]

Do the Guristas share the homophobia of the State?

Judging by the fact that one of the four Guristas officers is widely known to be gay, no:

Peunato, an extremely competent pilot, was forced out of the Caldari Navy when he revealed he was gay. Since joining the Guristas, Peunato has been instrumental in expanding their power and influence. Threat level: Deadly

I seemed to recall something about that. So it might be that the Guristas appeal to a subset of the GLBT population within the State?

It might be that the Guristas appeal to anyone who desires to flaggerently break Caldari social normals.  It can have nothing to do with personal preference and everything to do with flaunting how you are "special & different".

[Casiella]

Orange, could you clarify that a bit? I feel like I might have misunderstood your point regarding GLBT individuals, in the State and otherwise.

[Saede Riordan]

since this discussion seems to be currently focusing on the guristas, I will refrain from commenting.

[Hamish Grayson]

Orange, could you clarify that a bit? I feel like I might have misunderstood your point regarding GLBT individuals, in the State and otherwise.

It's not that they are homosexual, it's that they flaunt that they are homosexual that makes them an outcast in Caldari society.

[Casiella]

I don't have the same impression from the chronicle In the Electric Museum. That is to say, being gay (whether or not one "flaunts" it, a discussion for an entirely different thread) is enough to lead to ostracism.

since this discussion seems to be currently focusing on the guristas, I will refrain from commenting.

Feel free to comment on other aspects.

[Julianus Soter]

Do the Guristas share the homophobia of the State?

Judging by the fact that one of the four Guristas officers is widely known to be gay, no:

Peunato, an extremely competent pilot, was forced out of the Caldari Navy when he revealed he was gay. Since joining the Guristas, Peunato has been instrumental in expanding their power and influence. Threat level: Deadly

1. Re-read the story of Fatal and The Rabbit with this in mind.

2. Have 'AHA!' moment.

3. Understand why they hate capsuleers so much (one of the two is dead because of us).

4. See Sansha/Guristas standings.

5. Have second 'AHA!' moment.

6. Note that in the Angel Epic arc, Guristas field commanders and combat forces fly alongside Sansha Slaves to attack an Angel Cartel installation, have third 'AHA!' moment.

[Saede Riordan]

Well then, in that case, I spent a bit of time trying to figure out how to classify the cartel. The problem is that they're effectively beyond classification in terms we can relate to. They're a Rogue Nation, with a population in the tens of billions, inflitration in every corner of a galactic market, we can't look at them like anything that comes close to existing on earth today. The cartel and the other pirate factions have trillions of people living in them.

What is life like for those rough and tumble souls? Its not easy, its not safe, and for a lot, its probably not long, but it is free. Freedom taken to dangerous extremes where it starts to become not free. Where slavery is commonplace, money is the primary negotiating tool, and a quiet acceptance of anyone capable of holding their own ensures that the strongest are weeded out and rise into positions of importance. Take Nikita, she started out as a street kid, and she survived. She survived for the first 14 years of her life, that alone was enough to earn respect, then she joined the cartel military, and kept surviving, and because of that, she became a more and more valued asset. I see that as probably the way it works for a lot of people. Its survive of the toughest. Its rough and tumble and somewhat corrupt, but for the people who call Curse home, its still probably better then being a heretic in the empire, or a homosexual in the state, or an outcast in the republic. Its a chance for a better life, where, as hard as it is, that one chance to succeed is better then the lack of chances in the rest of the cluster.

So what is the cartel? The cartel is a nation still bootstrapping out of its violent past. The Cartel is a government ostracized from the Galactic Community, The cartel is an idea, in a way, similar to the Gallente Federation. Its a nation of outcasts, of criminals, of unwanteds, of nobodies. Its a nation composed of the refuse of the other four, the societal rubbish tossed by the roadside. The Cartel is a realization: if you exile, and throw out, and discard enough people, they eventually start saying no. The cartel is a vision, a dream for all those people who have nothing left to live for, and for a lot of them, the Cartel is hope.

And that terrifies the rest of the cluster.

[orange]

Orange, could you clarify that a bit? I feel like I might have misunderstood your point regarding GLBT individuals, in the State and otherwise.

"Their names were David and Yonate, and I believe you're the first person in a long while to ask that question. As for who the two men were, you won't find it in the history books. They were lovers."
...
"No offense. I mean, it's quite nice, having been given an insight into all these people, and I'm sure your motivations were good, for the most part. But I'm straight."
The curator opened his mouth to speak, but nothing came out except a croak. His cheeks flushed. Slowly he raised one hand and pointed at Ruebin. "You," he said at last. "You, you, you little shit!"

... the entire affair could have been heterosexual and still caused the two partners destruction.  KK & SuVee are dominating corps in State econo-politics, the CEO of one in a relationship with the other is filled with controversy.  Approach it from a totally corporate perspective and it doesn't matter if they are hetero/homo/bi/etc.  It is like a CFO of Microsoft sleeping with the CEO of Google ...  Gender doesn't matter in this case.

Peunato, an extremely competent pilot, was forced out of the Caldari Navy when he revealed he was gay. Since joining the Guristas, Peunato has been instrumental in expanding their power and influence. Threat level: Deadly

The "argument" is that the CN does not care about Peunato's orientation.  They care about is continued good order and discipline.  There are numerous ways in which Peunato could have revealed his sexual orientation, from saying to his superiors/comrades "Hey I am gay, we cool?" to while "in-port" grabbing the ass of some high-level officer's son at some local club while in uniform!  There is a significant difference between the two.  At initial reading, most readers will think it is the first, but it is the second that would have a bigger impact and would lead to being forced out.

The test in my opinion is can you sub in other things and have be equally believable?  For example if it said "he revealed he practices San Sabik," would we be calling the Caldari religiously intolerate?

[Casiella]

I can't speculate on the religious question because that would lack additional context. However ,I do understand the difference between Sani Sabik and "Blood Raider", and I assume you used the former intentionally (because I assume you understand the difference even better than I do).

But I've accidentally pulled us a little further afield than I should have. Further discussion of the extent of the Caldari State's homophobia deserves its own thread.

[orange]

The end-point, pertinent to the subject of choosing the "Outlaw Lifestyle," is that those who do not fit in and decide to stick out in Caldari society, might find a somewhat familiar environment by joining the Guristas, but one which does not have the cultural strictness or collectivism of the State.

[GoGo Yubari]

none of us here on this site (or nearly none) belong to the one percenter club IRL -- but that doesn't mean that nobody in the EVE fictional universe will be.

Interesting assumption.

Also, I'm not at all convinced the 1%er crowd is composed of society's sociapaths/psychopaths. Indeed, there are studies showing that these types are prevalent among the corporate elite. So, perhaps the opposite is true.

[Senn Typhos]

Uhhh.

There seems to be this odd concept that there is something noble about being a barbarian.

Being uncivilized is just plain stupid.

The OPs quote quite clearly showed that there is no paradise anywhere in the cluster, things are even worse in the lawless space. Instead of having any kind of hierarchy you are constantly under the assault of the raiding hordes that happen to come by.

The 1% that GoGo would be referring to are the sociopath/psychopath demographic.

Not a regular joe feeling betrayed by their own government.

You seem to be under the impression that pirates, outlaws and the like are uncivilized. You should think carefully on that, since the Serpentis run a successful nearly-Mega, the Guristas improved on Caldari ship designs - units from the nearly peerless State Navy - the Sanshas opened a stable wormhole on a whim, the blooders experimented with rogue drones, and the Angels are a powerhouse force on multiple fields.

From what I've seen, the outlaw factions are far more refined than the lawful ones.