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Author Topic: Where do I fit in?  (Read 8619 times)

Laerise [PIE]

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Where do I fit in?
« on: 04 Apr 2011, 17:58 »

http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=2020.msg25306;boardseen#new

I don't see where I told anyone he/she/they was/were doing anything wrong...
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Casiella

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Re: Where do I fit in?
« Reply #1 on: 04 Apr 2011, 18:04 »

I was primarily responding to:

Quote
2.) Liberals (PIE Inc., CVA - and on the very left end of the spectrum maybe Kotmc, although it is debatable if they still do count as amarr bloc) compared to hardliners, which have pretty much died out - except for maybe Lallara's Path of Thorns.

Emphasis mine, of course. :)
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Laerise [PIE]

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Re: Where do I fit in?
« Reply #2 on: 04 Apr 2011, 18:12 »

You still fail to explain why you think that that makes me tell them they're doing anything wrong.

The simple fact that Kotmc is harbouring open heretics in their ranks does differentiate them from what is traditionally known as the amarr bloc - me telling Kotmc they might well not be a part of the so called amarr bloc anymore does not mean they are doing anything wrong, just that they do things differently than the amarr bloc.
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Laerise [PIE]

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Re: Where do I fit in?
« Reply #3 on: 04 Apr 2011, 18:18 »

And why doesn't it fit with the amarrian bloc ?

PIE Inc and stuff are no liberals, they are orthodox centrists.

It's alright Lyn, you can lay off the IGS politicking here  :) This thread should stay focused on the moderation issue, you can always start a new one.

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Casiella

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Re: Where do I fit in?
« Reply #4 on: 04 Apr 2011, 18:43 »

Lyn, please don't rehash the actual issue here.

For both of you, and anyone else interested, I suggest a thread discussing the concept of "blocs", even focused on Amarr. Doing so without telling someone else that their own RP doesn't qualify for something is, of course, a sine qua non.
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Mizhara

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Re: Where do I fit in?
« Reply #5 on: 04 Apr 2011, 18:45 »

I'm in agreement with Laerise here, actually.

It was a perfectly valid post with no "urdoinitrong" or rules being broken. Overzealous moderation.
Oh, and PIE RP does not qualify as Tribalist RP.
* Mizhara awaits the catacomb hammer.
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Casiella

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Re: Where do I fit in?
« Reply #6 on: 04 Apr 2011, 18:59 »

Nice try, Miz, but no catacomb hammer for that! :P

I appreciate that others may feel as Miz does: that we wield the Mallet of Loving Correction [1] a bit too freely. (And I know for certain that some folks feel that way primarily about me specifically.) Occasionally, a post falls within the nebulous threshold. Perhaps one person might feel it clearly violates the guidelines, someone else thinks it presents no issues whatsoever, and a third person might feel uncertain. By its very nature, forum moderation brings up all sorts of issues of fairness and objectivity/subjectivity.

And, like most everyone else here, I've spent countless hours with an unhealthy obsession on Internet fora, where the general culture allows much looser and free-flowing discussion. On other sites I frequent, or have frequented in the past, Laerise's post could serve as a shining example of (relative) restraint.

None of those sites are Backstage, for better or for worse.

Were I to tell Laerise that she cannot suggest in any way that, say, "membership" within a "bloc" might not be viewed by everyone in the same manner, I'd clearly have overstepped the bounds, both of my privileges here and general etiquette overall. Were I to tell Miz that opinions on moderation, including those that disagree with mine, cannot be expressed, I'd have overstepped them to the degree that Silver would almost certainly (and rightly) remove me from the staff.

The FAQ actually contemplates this precise issue.

Quote
Q: Isn't all this subjective?
A: Yes. The Mods do their best to be fair, but inevitably, this is a subjective standard. Another thing for you to Deal With.

While I certainly respect your feelings on the matter, please take just a moment to think about it from the perspective of a moderator charged with maintaining "a place to exchange ideas and share information.... for positive, polite debate... for discussion, not arguments."

As noted, situations like this one will "inevitably" arise. Reasonable people can disagree on where to draw the line. This is, unfortunately, one of those situations.

Now to go put my daughter in bed.

[1]: With apologies to John Scalzi.
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Matariki Rain

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Re: Where do I fit in?
« Reply #7 on: 04 Apr 2011, 19:03 »

It's your forum and your call, but I don't see a problem with Laerise's post. It is debatable -- it could be an interesting debate, too -- and being core or fringe or outside an Amarr bloc isn't good or bad or doing it right or wrong as a roleplay stance, only different. (That it might be seen as good or bad for the characters inside the RP is a different matter.)

Is there some history of OOC squabbling which gives this a context beyond what's written?

(It turns out that Casiella's replied while I've been writing. I'm still posting, though. :) )
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scagga

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Re: Where do I fit in?
« Reply #8 on: 04 Apr 2011, 19:10 »

The Amarr bloc is a term that is very distinguishable from being simply 'Amarr RP'.  As far as I remember its origins lie in a characterisation that was created by Jade Constantine for the closeknit Amarrian organisations of the time that held a line and had a generally orthodox way of interpreting Amarr RP.  It was so catchy that those who had been labelled as the 'Amarr bloc' adopted the term.  

Traditionally the Amarr bloc know who they are, examples of units to include would be PIE, 1PG, CVA (though at times more of an associate member in my humble view), and at times the Ammatar Free Corps I suppose and even at some point the Aegis militia folk.

Addendum:
So in essence, when someone like Laerise uses the term 'Amarr bloc', it is a term of culture that is frequently used between corps the term concerns.  It is almost like an extended family way of thinking (all family members may have their quirks).  There is exclusivity - you aren't considered 'Amarr bloc' in the traditional sense of the term unless you are part of a group that has close-working, trusting relations with the core corporations involved in it and uphold the unwritten ethical standards.

At the end of the day an outsider may see the term 'Amarr bloc' as Amarr RP and believe that saying someone is 'probably not amarr bloc' is offensive.  I tend to view it as an objective state of fact.
« Last Edit: 04 Apr 2011, 19:14 by scagga »
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Casiella

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Re: Where do I fit in?
« Reply #9 on: 04 Apr 2011, 19:24 »

Scagga, thanks for the clarification.

So this sort of leads me to conclude that, while Laerise meant nothing offensive by the statement in question, an outsider (like me, and undoubtedly others) might see it as heading in the wrong direction, rhetorically speaking.
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Laerise [PIE]

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Re: Where do I fit in?
« Reply #10 on: 05 Apr 2011, 01:17 »

Scagga, thanks for the clarification.

So this sort of leads me to conclude that, while Laerise meant nothing offensive by the statement in question, an outsider (like me, and undoubtedly others) might see it as heading in the wrong direction, rhetorically speaking.

In this case, are you going to do the right thing and revise your descision?

Also I'd like to hear the thoughts of at least one other moderator on this, since it seems to me that your personal point of view played a descisive role in your moderation of my statement.  :)

fake edit: no offense, I just want clarification
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Casiella

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Re: Where do I fit in?
« Reply #11 on: 05 Apr 2011, 09:44 »

The "right thing" is subjective: if folks feel like it's flamebait, it probably should stay moderated even if it wasn't intended as flamebait.

And obviously other moderators can chime in anytime. ;) :P
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Jade Constantine

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Re: Where do I fit in?
« Reply #12 on: 05 Apr 2011, 10:00 »

The Amarr bloc is a term that is very distinguishable from being simply 'Amarr RP'.  As far as I remember its origins lie in a characterisation that was created by Jade Constantine for the closeknit Amarrian organisations of the time that held a line and had a generally orthodox way of interpreting Amarr RP.  It was so catchy that those who had been labelled as the 'Amarr bloc' adopted the term.  

Traditionally the Amarr bloc know who they are, examples of units to include would be PIE, 1PG, CVA (though at times more of an associate member in my humble view), and at times the Ammatar Free Corps I suppose and even at some point the Aegis militia folk.

Addendum:
So in essence, when someone like Laerise uses the term 'Amarr bloc', it is a term of culture that is frequently used between corps the term concerns.  It is almost like an extended family way of thinking (all family members may have their quirks).  There is exclusivity - you aren't considered 'Amarr bloc' in the traditional sense of the term unless you are part of a group that has close-working, trusting relations with the core corporations involved in it and uphold the unwritten ethical standards.

At the end of the day an outsider may see the term 'Amarr bloc' as Amarr RP and believe that saying someone is 'probably not amarr bloc' is offensive.  I tend to view it as an objective state of fact.

True that. Back then I refered to the Amarr bloc for practical reasons - basically those entities that would wardec people who wardecced members of the bloc for mutual support - thus I saw the "amarr bloc" as a pretty formal coalition of amarr-aligned powers.

Of course FW torpedo'ed the concept right up the drive tubes.

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Graelyn

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Re: Where do I fit in?
« Reply #13 on: 05 Apr 2011, 10:56 »

Yeah, FW destroyed a lot of work.

Doesn't mean there can't be a future for the idea. It will just take more work.

The Amarr bloc didn't start out that way; the Minmatar were actually the first to get their acts together (rather contrary to our projected image of their squabbling nature), which kinda scared us Amarr groups into dropping our differences.
Even CVA and Aegis Militia, as much as our members disliked one another, as much as our goals were opposed, and as much as CCP/AURORA tried time and time again to turn us on each other  :yar:, it was always the organisation of those aligned against us that drew us to cooperate and support each other.

If it weren't for that pressure (including some provided by the poster above me  8) ), the different Amarr groups would have torn each other's guts out long ago. We Imperials can be a combative folk...
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Laerise [PIE]

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Re: Where do I fit in?
« Reply #14 on: 04 May 2011, 12:07 »

The "right thing" is subjective: if folks feel like it's flamebait, it probably should stay moderated even if it wasn't intended as flamebait.

And obviously other moderators can chime in anytime. ;) :P

I am still waiting for clarification by another moderator than Casiella.
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