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[Mizhara]

You know, I've often considered Eve Online to be one of the more balanced MMOs out there. There's few things that are without counters, there's very little you can't face with equal numbers/methods or with even fewer numbers as long as your tactics are superior. You can face a superior force with superior logistics and maneuvers, you can face a smaller but more powerful force with superior numbers. There's no end to things you can do in Eve and for the very most part it's all very well balanced.

Today, I just realized there's one thing that's very imbalanced and enormously hard to counter. Fictional endeavors with no actual in-space assets/resources to point your own autocannons at. I'll use a recent IGS post as an example: House Kyriel announcement.

Here there's thousands of people pulled out of thin air, living in the Republic in a capsuleer's fictional endeavor. Good stuff RP wise and I have to say I very much like the detail put into the whole thing. Very interesting stuff...

... but impossible to counter. There's nothing to do military wise, no targets to shoot at, no nothing. There's no way to counter it by going "On the contrary, infiltrators in the encampment has shown indoctrination and blah blah" or whatever you choose to see in there since that would be godmoding other people's RP. Out of the blue, there's now thousands of Matari flocking around an Amarr capsuleer in Republic space preaching and spreading the Amarr faith.

Entirely without even the slightest risk of retribution or counter.

The imbalance doesn't materialize, however, until you realize there's just no way to do the same kind of thing in return. You can't go "I'm a Minmatar in the Empire, who just converted thousands of Amarrians and a few Holders to the Matari cause and non-slavery. The Holders are happily undergoing the Voluval and everything's so much better than the rest of the Empire!" without it being ridiculous.

Now, I'm not even hinting that Jesmine here (or Bloodbird as I believe the main/forum name was) isdoinitrong because it's very well wrought and not entirely inconceivable that something like this could exist... but there still isn't any counter. There's no way to engage in return, as far as I can tell.

What I'm seeking here is a bit of debate on what can be done to rectify this imbalance between factions that I didn't even know existed until today... and what can be done to make this kind of RP work without just steamrolling across 'the other faction'?

[Jev North]

Have you tried asking this Bloodbird person? It's only impossible to counter if they're not amenable to letting any other people in on what's happening there. That's not automatically the case, no?

[Mizhara]

Oh, the example used is not meant to be derogatory, just so you know. I'll be contacting Bloodbird/Jesmine Kyriel in-game to see if there's RP possibilities around that particular venture. This thread isn't about that event in particular, but about what that event indicates when it comes to factional imbalance in such fictional ventures.

[Lyn Farel]

I see your point but same for me : OOCly talk to the player to see what can be done. If someone has to get involved in delicate RP affairs like this, they have to keep in mind the possible consequences that are dictated by the PF itself. Remember Abdel Jarek. Same here. Tension has to arise around this at some point. So talk to the player, and see what can be done without automatically burning the estate to ashes (or maybe that is what the player wants, I don't know).

The imbalance doesn't materialize, however, until you realize there's just no way to do the same kind of thing in return. You can't go "I'm a Minmatar in the Empire, who just converted thousands of Amarrians and a few Holders to the Matari cause and non-slavery. The Holders are happily undergoing the Voluval and everything's so much better than the rest of the Empire!" without it being ridiculous.

Well, this is what you get to play the Republic. You have other cons and annoying things when you play in the Empire as well. No need to complain about that, every faction has its flaws to be exploited by the opposite faction.

And here, I do not even think that Kyriel is exploiting a flaw to convert all the Minmatar, it looks like some kind of utopic society. It would be impossible if the Republic was only filled with extremists, but it isn't.

[Louella Dougans]

describe this imbalance?

[Mizhara]

Thought I'd already done that. There's a linked example of the many ways one can just write oneself into subjugating a large chunk of the Republic, while there's no real way to do anything even remotely as impacting onto the Empire without it becoming ridiculous and unrealistic.

[Louella Dougans]

the secret stairway, heterodoxical priests, free minmatar converts, and other things too. These things exist to state that many empire residents are convinced of things.

Anyway, so what if it's slightly unbalanced? Minmatar are just as easy to put into the one-dimensional stereotypes that everyone loves putting Amarr characters into.


Besides all that, it's not like players have any impact on things anyway. Not now, if ever (doubtful).

[Casiella]

I'd like to make sure I understand: the game imbalance is that players can write background material or OOG events that you can't shoot at or otherwise counter?

[Louella Dougans]

I'd like to make sure I understand: the game imbalance is that players can write background material or OOG events that you can't shoot at or otherwise counter?

As far as I can tell, it is that CCP have written things such that conversion of minmatar is possible by brute force or by peaceful means, whereas the minmatar are written in such a way as to only be brute force in the ways of achieving their goals.

vOv It's not like other factions haven't been painted into a corner either.

[Casiella]

Hm, in that case I don't think I agree with the premise. A player of a Minmatar character could write about an Amarrian who visited the Republic, saw that it's not full of degenerates beating drums and the pernicious effects of slavery, and decided to free a bunch of his own slaves, blah blah blah.

Or perhaps the so-called "God-lovers" among the returned slaves see the tribal light and abandon the faith they were taught back in the Empire, etc etc.

The only real limitations here come from one's own creativity, not CCP.

[Mizhara]

None of those things are Minmatar RP endeavors, Casiella. Those are all Amarr in origin, so unless I create a wholly fictional Amarr and RP him through Miz in what can only be called godmoding a faction, or in a way that makes it not Amarrian by actions or words, it's not achievable. The Amarr on the other hand can remain fully Amarrian and still exploit the entire hostile faction.

I wish it was that easy to just shrug it off like Louella does, but that kind of bothers me. It's hard enough to play as a Minmatar with strong views on the conflict, without the 'enemies' having that easy a time with tearing down your faction.

[Bong-cha Jones]

This thread isn't about that event in particular, but about what that event indicates when it comes to factional imbalance in such fictional ventures.

To address the particular, it sounds like an ad for a PI colony.  Nothing stopping Minmatar investors from doing the same in Amarr space.  At least this one is from a liberal Holder in exile, instead of, say, PIE.

For the general issue, I don't know what to say, really.  The Minmatar were subaltern for a long time.  Cultural transmission was largely one way and Amarrian entities have little to gain by giving up their privilege to live in Matari fashion, particularly when they'd face prejudice from the people they were emulating.  The rebellion left people in the Republic who don't want to be slaves, but still feel spiritually connected to some form of the Amarr religion.  The current state of affairs seems believable to me, so I'm not exactly sure what the problem is, other than that it sometimes sucks to be part of a community that was badly damaged by generations of oppression.

[Lyn Farel]

What is the issue seriously ? Kyriel did not say she converted all the Republic... @_@

What she is depicting already exists in the Republic, it is just another example of it.

[Kaleigh Doyle]

I'd make (ic) a subtle remark about staying safe and hope nothing horrible happens to them in the middle of the night. Other than that, it doesn't do much. Since its all textual anyway, say you've got the place monitored and sent out thugs to scare off potential Minmatar who take interest in it. Start a campaign or protest it just outside.

If they can say they did something on a planet that cannot really be contested, you can create anything to counter it, so long as they don't have any direct interaction. For instance: saying you burnt down their settlement is god-moding; saying you're scaring off potentials with thugs and surveilance is not, because the 'quantity' established is ambiguous.

There are options.

[Casiella]

THERE ARE NO HAPPY SLAVES HERE! THEY SACRIFICE THEMSELVES ON THE WALLS OF THE ENCAMPMENTS! I TAKE YOU THERE AND SHOW YOU MYSELF IN ONE HOUR!

(The Iraqi Information Minister could have a field day with this, tbh.)