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[Seriphyn]

tl;dr - Consolidated fiction will mean less 'ur doin it wrong'

People want to play what they want to play. And they ignore things about their factions to achieve that. Seeing what we want to see isn't anything new. And because we're capsuleers, we do have a degree of plausible deniability regarding what happens 'inside' a certain faction.

The key is, I think, removing the OOC stigmas/biases that have soaked into the roleplaying community on all sides about those various factions, and judge the state or roleplay objectively from there.

One of the biggest problems I have with EVE is the lack of consolidated PF about a faction or particular topic. For my Federation guide, I had to assemble a collection of over two hundred sources dating back an entire DECADE. Why isn’t information about the Federation and other factions in a format like the guide I assembled? It's not exactly ten years long, either. Admittedly, CCP redeemed themselves with the two articles about the Caldari Financial System and Caldari Funds Unlimited, as well as the announcement of an in-game codex, but that’s still far off.

Per se, this isn’t an issue. It becomes an issue when we, as a community, have so many disagreements and clashes, both in-character and out, over what it is “facts” in EVE. As much of being obsessive over PF as I am, I get the feeling we would get on as RPers a LOT better if there was a clear and concise universe (eg. Star Wars, LOTR etc.). As was brought up by someone yesterday, the issue with this as this might eliminate character variety. At the cost of not being such an embarrassing counter-amiable community (RPers have tried out EVE, and left over how we conduct ourselves), I think this is worth it. If the fictional universe states that most Caldari are indoctrinated corporate workers (which it does, with exceptions before you crucify and nitpick me to death on this lol), then we might have a more believable and realistic universe, and the 10% of Caldari who aren’t indoctrinated really start to stand out (then again, Caldari capsuleers may just very well be that 10%; we’re not exactly the average Joe).

I mean, you wouldn’t expect to see a Force-Sensitive astrodroid in Star Wars.

Instead, with hundreds of PF sources, what happens is that some of us only read what we want to read, and ignore what we don’t (confirmation bias). I’d like to say more often (and I think I’m right on this), people do not have the time or energy to read every single piece of PF, so when they are ‘corrected’, they happily admit this and adapt IC and OOC. But what happens VERY often, EXTREMELY often, is that a player/character makes an arbitrary statement regarding an element of PF, maybe impose it on other players/characters, about how this is “fact”, despite contradictions that they will be presented with (for example, Caldari FW NPCs being Caldari Navy).

This is not good RP, it’s absolutely terrible, and what happens is that RP descends to nothing more than an IC debate about OOC PF.

Examples of confirmation bias, denial and selective interpretations

- A Caldari character in a news item comments that the State is about free enterprise and personal initiative, therefore, the State is all about free enterprise and personal initiative. All the while ignoring potentially unreliable statement from a character, and ignoring CCP third-person narrations. (confirmation bias)

- An Amarrian Holder rapes their slave and their children, therefore, all Amarrian Holders rape their slaves and their children (confirmation bias)

- The Gallente Federation do not have public executions as spectacles, because they are all about human dignity, freedom and sanity. (denial)

- The Gallente do not culturally assimilate, as its members all stand out with their own characteristics. (selective interpretation for justification). But the fact an Intaki will be called a Gallentean is assimilation, for example.

- Factional warfare has no meaning, since it has no effect on in-game mechanics, ignoring storyline and fiction posts by CCP (denial for convenience)

- Minmatar Republic Fleet do not have hi-tech equipment, but Sebiestors are stated to be ingenious at engineering, so that piece of PF must be incorrect (confirmation bias, misinterpretation)

This might be a massive “UR DOIN IT WRONG” but think how many falling outs we have had as players, how many massive threadnaughts and dramas that have occurred purely because we have been arguing over PF. My position is simple; CCP should (and looks they will under CCP Abraxas) clearly outline their fictional universe, while watching out to not be TOO ambiguous, leaving enough scope, to still be able to create interesting characters.

The Caldari State has been made VERY thorough by CCP, an example of having “clear and outlined PF” (surprisingly, despite this, there are still the problems of confirmation bias, denial etc.). If people used their imagination, then you can create interesting Caldari characters while remaining all within PF. Everyone IC completely ignored on the IGS the bringing up of the fact that the Wiyrkomi Corporation is present in the Mannar home system. How do these Caldari Patriots trade and coexist with these Federation nationalists? How does a Caldari Liberal and Ishukone soldier feel about losing family in a battle with the Gallente, when Ishukone are characterized as extremely friendly to the Federation? Then break it down to the eight megacorporations, all of whom are slowly being fleshed out by CCP.

The extreme outlining of the Caldari is there, yet I don’t feel it has limited scope for Caldari characters at all. If CCP go “Yeah, all Amarrians are zealots”, which they started out with initially, then yes, there will be a total lack of interesting characters (anyone who tries otherwise will be told UR DOIN IT WRONG). But as they fleshed them out over time, it’s been pretty clear that most of them, especially Commoners and the average citizen, are not.

I’ll stop it there before I lose track.

[Rodj Blake]

Some good points, well made.

[orange]

The Caldari State has been made VERY thorough by CCP, an example of having “clear and outlined PF” (surprisingly, despite this, there are still the problems of confirmation bias, denial etc.). If people used their imagination, then you can create interesting Caldari characters while remaining all within PF. Everyone IC completely ignored on the IGS the bringing up of the fact that the Wiyrkomi Corporation is present in the Mannar home system. How do these Caldari Patriots trade and coexist with these Federation nationalists? How does a Caldari Liberal and Ishukone soldier feel about losing family in a battle with the Gallente, when Ishukone are characterized as extremely friendly to the Federation? Then break it down to the eight megacorporations, all of whom are slowly being fleshed out by CCP.

Did you consider you do not interact with the "interesting" characters because they are Caldari and don't want to be the nail that sticks out (and gets hammered down)?

I did not see where you brought up Wiyrkomi is present in Mannar, but I routinely bring up the presence of State Corporations throughout the Federation.  CreoDron is present across most of the State (sans Black Rise), how does this Federal corporation survive in the cut-throat Caldari State?  For Wiyrkomi the simple answer is they continue to operate there the same way they did 250 years ago.

I think you are misinterpreting Ishukone's characterization.  Ishukone wants its customers and is willing to work within the laws of the Federation to retain them.  Ishukone is arguably "friendly" towards the Empire and Republic - they espouse free trade after all.

Your overall point however seems fair - consolidating and building the fiction will reduce "ur doin it wrong."  I think Evelopedia is an excellent place to help do that and enables players to help piece together the background (shameless self promotion, see Lai Dai's 2nd corporation page).

[Elsebeth Rhiannon]

Minmatar Republic Fleet do not have hi-tech equipment, but Sebiestors are stated to be ingenious at engineering, so that piece of PF must be incorrect

How about "The Republic Fleet is said to have less access to high-tech equipment than other fleets, therefore a Minmatar would probably not hack a computer"? Where would you classify that, mm?

In the discussion that obviously refers to, no one claimed that the PF about the Fleet having harder time to come by high tech than other navies is incorrect. What was claimed is that your interpretation of that bit of PF is wrong, or at least not the only possible one. Using as an example of bias a case like that where others did not agree with you does not really make you look unbiased, you know? The "they did not agree with my interpretation, therefore it is an example of misinterpretation" is a confirmation bias in itself - and moreover, it's pretty much just saying "ur doing it wrong" with fancier words.

You have a point in this, though:

Instead, with hundreds of PF sources, what happens is that some of us only read what we want to read, and ignore what we don’t (confirmation bias). I’d like to say more often (and I think I’m right on this), people do not have the time or energy to read every single piece of PF, so when they are ‘corrected’, they happily admit this and adapt IC and OOC. But what happens VERY often, EXTREMELY often, is that a player/character makes an arbitrary statement regarding an element of PF, maybe impose it on other players/characters, about how this is “fact”, despite contradictions that they will be presented with (for example, Caldari FW NPCs being Caldari Navy).

I strongly agree that avoiding this sort of biases would be important and that collected PF would help, yes. Just if we talk about that, can we talk about it without examples that are you pushing your interpretations as facts on other players, in exactly the way you attempt to criticize?

(EDITed for less flame. Apologies.)

[Wanoah]

I broadly agree with the OP and it echoes my thoughts over the years as well. I have argued on any number of occasions that we needed a New Eden Gazetteer - basically an equivalent to the CIA World Factbook. I've argued that planet and system info needs to be populated in-game with credible information. The planets that are habitable should look habitable in-game and be noted as such in the DB.

A new guy recently posted somewhere here for advice - basically, "where do I start with this RP stuff?" Someone replied, "Read the chrons!" Ha! Well, that used to be good advice. Now? Not so much. There are an absolute shittonne of the damn things! You wouldn't stand a chance.

There was a time when I had read everything and felt that I'd retained enough to have a real handle on things. There are too many minor details tucked away into too many pieces of fiction to really gather anything concrete. The chrons were an excellent start in Eve - a great way to get a flavour of the place - when there weren't so many of them. Now, more than ever, we need the facts and only the facts. Facts that should be gospel. Absolute canon. Then, let the fiction be canonical, but 'second degree' canon, if you like. Let the fiction be allowed to be as unreliable as its narrators and protagonists as a source of information about the world.

Still, as a note of caution, there should always be plenty of gaps and room for interpretation. The shear scale of New Eden can allow for any kind of variation imaginable, thus plenty of leeway for some of the more left field character choices.

[Seriphyn]

Else, you sort have proven another point I didn't put down.

Making statements about a faction that is negative is often interpreted as an attack, particularly from Minmatar or Caldari RPers. If I say "The Republic Fleet is not high-tech" (purely quoting the RF corp desc) or if I say "The Republic is corrupt" (going from the general notions/themes of PF), I am pretty much hunted down and corrected.

Take an example, my initial remark about the RF not being high-tech was followed by a hesistant "...I think...?", ie. it's not an arbitrary statement, and players can correct me here due to my open display of not being sure on the topic.

Instead, the response to that quote was snarky, hostile and followed by "Have a nice day". Wow, what? Bringing up a negative point about another faction that you don't RP almost always invokes a hostile reaction, it's a subconscious ad hominem along the lines of...

"You don't RP this faction, so how can you talk about it to any respectable level OOC?"

And believe me, I've thought like that many a times. Couple years ago it was "Hey, you're an Intaki secessionist RPer, you can't write fiction about the Gallente!". If the Minmatar aren't high tech, so what? It's stated that the Caldari are on the edge of bleeding technology, it means the Caldari are far more advanced than the Minmatar? This isn't a personal attack, it's just quoting what we have in fiction.

We all have to remember our factions aren't real, and so getting defensive about something that's just, ultimately, a collection of words is unnecessary. I can freely criticize the Federation and its problems according to PF, but the moment I bring up something about another faction, people either respectfully demonstrate hesitant maybes or disagreements, or just outright say "No!".

[Kaleigh Doyle]

While I agree that a condensed PF source of facts would be useful, I'll never understand the obsessed behavior to know every tiny detail about every obscure source of prime fiction. It should be fun, not a Bible fight...or at least a fun Bible fight!

[Inara Subaka]

Well my general response to "what does PF say about this?" is to open this fancy little .pdf I have (currently behind a few months I think). I consider the stuff in there 'concrete', things that can be extrapolated by logical reasoning to be 'fairly solid', things that would reasonably make since in the universe presented by the 'concrete' stuff but has no actual evidence to be 'I'll accept that', and things that just have no place in the presented universe as 'well, you do that over there, I'll be over here' material.

Also, I can't believe I'm going to be doing this...

Minmatar Republic Fleet do not have hi-tech equipment, but Sebiestors are stated to be ingenious at engineering, so that piece of PF must be incorrect

How about "The Republic Fleet is said to have less access to high-tech equipment than other fleets, therefore a Minmatar would probably not hack a computer"? Where would you classify that, mm?

In the discussion that obviously refers to, no one claimed that the PF about the Fleet having harder time to come by high tech than other navies is incorrect. What was claimed is that your interpretation of that bit of PF is wrong, or at least not the only possible one.

The Republic has some of the top of the line tech in the EVE universe. They were, and are, the brightest and best mechanical minds in the cluster. To quote The Book of EVE, "The fortunes of the Minmatars have ebbed and flowed continuously. At one time they had a flourishing empire with a level of mechanical excellence never before or since seen anywhere." It goes on to talk about how their enslavement was a major setback in their tech-development, but those minds still exist along with the ability to recreate their "mechanical excellence".

Also, a major point of note. Cartel ships are based on Minmatar and Jovian designs, while ancient Jovian tech is great, a lot of the designs more than likely came from Minmatar minds... The Cartel just cleans their ships so tetanus shots aren't required to fly them  .

Not to mention Eifyr and Co. is one of the top implant and booster designers/manufacturers.



Something to consider about PF and what is "correct and incorrect": for those that have played tabletop RPGs (DnD, Pathfinder, Shadowrun, etc...) using a predetermined campaign setting (Faerun, Eberon, etc...), the culture of a single country varies greatly. Hell in some cases the culture of a single city depends on where in the city you are. In EVE, we're effectively talking about several thousand times the scope of variety. A single planet... that could easily be 15-20 books worth of PF covering culture, crime syndicates, government, business, et al. Then, you consider the fact that there's thousands of inhabited planets, and let's not forget the Stations with several million people on them.

There's a book dedicated to a city in Faerun called Waterdeep, the city itself has a population of about 130k. A station, each station probably, could have a book dedicated to it's own cultural quirks, people to know, places to go/not go, and that stuff. When someone mentions something that doesn't fit what you thought was "ideal", consider that it is impossible to know every cultural quirk from every corner of every empire (both big 4 and nulsec). Even with the 1009pg .pdf that compiles everything CCP has put out... that leaves a lot of 'unknown' or 'uncovered' territory.

[Elsebeth Rhiannon]

Else, you sort have proven another point I didn't put down.

Making statements about a faction that is negative is often interpreted as an attack, particularly from Minmatar or Caldari RPers.

... I really rest my case.

[Merdaneth]

I'm on the opposite end of the spectrum. The more clear, consise, not-contradictory, comprehensive prime fiction is, the more likely you'll be told "you are doing it wrong" when RP-ing. The more likely people that have a fancy for memorizing every little bit about the eve universe with meddle with your interpretation on account of them "being right" and you "being wrong".

Personally, I don't like devotion to 'one immutable truth'. We all know that history IRL is written by the victors, why does EVE history need the illusion of an objective encyclopedia. I don't think such a concept fits the 'shades of grey' concept of EVE at all.

As for myself, the lack of a clear 'truth' makes it easy for me to bend EVE into my vision of it. I may not have the power to publish PF, but I do have the power to change player's perceptions of it. I like to be able to convince people that the Amarr really won the battle with the Jove, and there isn't an OOC 'absolute truth from CCP' out there that I cannot question IC.

I would like more information about certain aspects of the world, but as for a encyclopedia of fact, thanks but no thanks.

[Merdaneth]

This might be a massive “UR DOIN IT WRONG” but think how many falling outs we have had as players, how many massive threadnaughts and dramas that have occurred purely because we have been arguing over PF.

There is no need to argue over PF. At such times at would prefer 'no PF atall' over 'comprehensive, detailed and non-contradictory PF'. Just work within the observable world within the game, just keep it IC instead of slapping another character IC with a reference to a OOC source.

A news message from a Gallente news agency is suspect to Merdaneth, a news message from a Amarr news agency is also suspect to Merdaneth. A news message from a chronicle, how does that reach me? Does it come from a suspect source.

I know many people like to be kind of historians and would like to catalogue and detail every little part of EVE. But in my experience it tends to be the player that wants this, rarely the character. And I don't like the player intruding into my game and his character telling mine I'm doing it wrong because his background knowledge of EVE is unquestionable.

[Louella Dougans]

I ran into a wall recently with this sort of thing

It says in one of the lvl1 missions some things about interpretations of the Amarr scriptures something like:

"These groups are as fanatical as the mainstream Amarr, but have alternative, heretical interpretations of the scriptures used to justify..."

It doesn't give any details of these controversial scriptures.

I found it frustrating.

Would happen with other factions too.

Like suppose the PF mentions "The invasion of Planet X was the most controversial incident of the war".

But it's not mentioned who was invading, or where Planet X even is. What can you do with that?

[Merdaneth]

Like suppose the PF mentions "The invasion of Planet X was the most controversial incident of the war".

But it's not mentioned who was invading, or where Planet X even is. What can you do with that?

You make something up?

That is part of the essence of RP-ing for me. There is no clear line between what you are allowed to make up and what not. Just tread carefully when you make up things that might impact others world-view in a major way, or you risk your interpretation not being accepted.

[Merdaneth]

To cross over from another thread.

Ultimately it doesn't matter whether Istvaan caused the downfall of IT or he didn't. What matters is what people believe.

I don't like CCP deciding whether or not Istvaan caused the downfall. And I like it even less for player to challenge me with OOCly motivated arguments telling me that Istvaan did cause their downfall because some chronicle from CCP 'said so'. That's not my EVE. My EVE is where you hear people saying that GHSC caused the downfall of IT and you deciding for yourself how plausible that is based on the sources and the evidence.

[Ulphus]

Instead, the response to that quote was snarky, hostile and followed by "Have a nice day". Wow, what? Bringing up a negative point about another faction that you don't RP almost always invokes a hostile reaction, it's a subconscious ad hominem along the lines of...

"You don't RP this faction, so how can you talk about it to any respectable level OOC?"

Nah, I'd be prepared to give you shit about Gallente stuff too, but I don't pretend to know anything about them. It's not just your talking about the Matari.

The thing that bugs me is your generalisations, not your appeal to the PF.

Earth has what, 6 billion people? And there is a /huge/ variety of people, customs, musical tastes and people's talents.

India has 1 billion people. Some of them are illiterate and live on the streets, some of them drive mercedes are designing computer chips. If you said "An Indian wouldn't be able to do X" would you be surprised if people tried to point at cases where you're just wrong?

There are Trillions of Matari on hundreds of worlds. They'll vary hugely in talents, propensities, education, customs, preferences. The same with the Amarr or the Caldari or the Gallente.

When you say "A Matari wouldn't hack a door lock" you offend me in your assumptions that all Matari are the same. I would be just as offended by someone who said "A Caldari wouldn't like heavy metal music" for much the same reasons, but I don't pretend to know enough about Caldari PF to retort.

Have a Nice Day.