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[Grr]

After running small guilds/corps for many years now on/off its happened to me a dozen or so times, and I've even (wrongly) been accused of it myself.  I've always tried to ignore the problem or approach the people responsible for it but many times have been pretty wound up by the experience and I'm hoping I am not alone.

I've always thought it a pretty douchey thing to do to even my enemies (remember I take the whole love thy enemy approach) but especially so to allies but I'm curious as to what the rest of the community think here and if there are any specific experiences they have had. 

Note:  If you give examples in eve, best to perhaps omit names/corps to keep the thread polite

[Myrhial Arkenath]

Have experienced it and been accused of it. Never done it intentionally, though I can see why some people believe me to have done so. We had people come to us at one point and took them in, which upset their former CEO greatly, and I found that rather silly as the corporation they were part of was winding down. We also have seen people leave, and I think I can safely give the example of us going into stasis here with people moving into Veto. I could be all pissy over that and beat myself up and think Verone is a terrible person, but why would I? Things weren't good within PRETA at that time, and now they can be thanks to a fresh start, which is a win-win for both those who are back for the second incarnation as well as those who are now happier in a group that seems to satisfy their needs.

Poaching, intentional or unintentional, or even just opportunistically, is just a fact of life. You can worry long and hard about it, but it is wasted time. If people leave your corporation because they feel the grass is greener elsewhere, that is their fair decision to make. It may sting, and you may feel you have failed, or you're being mistreated by the party taking in your former members, but everyone pays for their own subscription and is thus responsibly, for good or for worse, for their own decisions. It is not your right to stop them. They are not your property.

Now personally I will always ask someone who decides to leave to be honest about why, because there may be an important lesson in it for me. Sometimes people and their priorities just change though. which is another fact of life. Do not take that personal. Realize instead you too change, which in the end, maybe also be a reason for people to leave. Never ever stop yourself from changing or make changes you do not like to prevent losing members. It is cheating yourself and it will backfire on you.

It sounds like a harsh thing to say, but if people want to leave for something that sounds better on paper but you can pretty much tell will be a gigantic failure, you sometimes just have to let them go and experience that. Burning our fingers on something hot is how we learn. And maybe they will not burn their fingers, and maybe they will end up having a great time and there will be no gigantic failure. Oh well. Would you have liked then to stand in the way of that? Could you really sleep knowing that members who stay with your corporation because they are afraid of your reaction are less happy than they would have been elsewhere?

Our egos want us to succeed and be the center of attention, but personally I believe a good leader is that person who does what he or she wants to do regardless of it having the back of 5, 50 or 500 members. Even if your corporation is the best idea ever and the savior of EVE and will make them remember this game as the best thing they ever did in life (god, I hope not, what a terrible life that would be).

Besides, there is this little thing called karma. If someone poached your members with something that sounds great on paper and the intention to run you into the ground, they also have to make it come true, meaning they are going to have to work for it very hard. From my experience poachers fall into the traps they dig for others sooner or later.

So, in the end, spend your time on positive things. Build a great corporation so people are happy. Focus on those that are staying and that are joining, even if you get just one person and they get 20. Numbers are overrated, if you play it smart, you can get very far. But you must want it. Nobody has ever had success land in their laps just like that. The must successful people are those who have also failed the most. But they always crawled back up, heeded the lesson that was to be learned, and kept going for it.

[Saxon Hawke]

I've had people leave the ILF and take a few people with them as they made their exit. Sometimes it's been a good thing as the corp that formed was complimentary to the ILF, but slightly different. In fact, a couple of those splinter corps are now "back in the fold" as part of our alliance. We've also had people change corps within our alliance, some of them coming to the ILF and others going from it to the smaller corps. I've never taken any of these instances personally.

However, one case in particular hurt because the person who defected managed to take nearly every skilled PVP I had. For the the ILF, building up our PVP strength has been a constant uphill battle and to lose them all in one fell swoop was tough. To make it even more painful, the guy who gutted the corp's combat division was a RL friend of mine who completely denied that had done anything other than announce he was going to start his own corp and that everyone just flocked to him.

Of course, his story would have been easier to believe if more loyal members of the ILF hadn't passed on to me his recruitment messages that he continued to send for at least six months after forming his own corp.

For myself, my policy has almost universally been to not recruit anyone from any other corp (friend, foe or otherwise) unless that person has first expressed to me an interest in leaving their current corp.

[Elsebeth Rhiannon]

I have been in the lucky position for years now where I have not really needed to worry about recruitment, so also have never had to think about whether I would want to specifically offer a position for someone in already another corporation. I know it is frowned on in the community, but frankly I am not sure I consider courteously offering, giving a realistic idea of what you could offer, a big deal.

I've had people attempt to headhunt members of my corporation. In the cases I know of, I know why the attempts were made, I could see why the headhunter felt their offer might be a better match, and the people involved openly told me about it and whether they were considering or not, so I never felt that stuff was happening behind my back. Also, most attempts failed, and the reaction of Gradient key people to such attempts mostly seems to be on the lines of "LOL NO" which is why I might feel it is not a big deal.

I do not mind, and occasionally actually tend to encourage, GRD members and those applying to the corp to also take a look at other EM corporations. Internal transfers both out of and into the corporation have happened occasionally and so far, it seems to me, the vast majority of the results have been outstandingly good, with individuals finding places that are very good fits for them. Similarly with people transferring into or from Militia corporations.

Occasionally people approach us to join Gradient who are in other (RP or otherwise) corporations. We ask them why they are leaving, which is partly to make sure they are not looking for something we cannot offer with the transfer, but we do not consider where they come from otherwise a relevant factor; if they want to leave their current corp and join us, their call. I don't consider this "poaching" where the recruitment process was not initiated by us, though I have been accused of it in such cases.

[Esna Pitoojee]

Depends on how you define Headhunting and Poaching.

That said, if you know someone who is unhappy in their current corp, or think they might be able to be happier in a corp you are in, well... I mean, it is a game. The point of which is to have fun.

[Elsebeth Rhiannon]

That said, if you know someone who is unhappy in their current corp, or think they might be able to be happier in a corp you are in, well... I mean, it is a game. The point of which is to have fun.

This, pretty much. As long as you do not lie about what you have to offer, and do not go out of your way to put the other guys down in order to gain the player, I am not sure I see anything wrong in saying "well, if you decide you don't like them, we are hiring".

[GoGo Yubari]

I'm having a really difficult time seeing headhunting as a bad thing.

[scagga]

It found it odd when people tried to poach me when I was the CEO of a corporation 

[Shalee Lianne]

I have always found it flattering to be approached by other corps, though I'm under no illusions as to why.  In the past it was probably because of the omg-its-a-gurl.  

Regardless, I'm pretty loyal to corps that I am in.

As for KOTMC, I rarely approach other people to join, unless I like them and know that they are looking for another corp.  Sometimes I'll snag people out of the general militia as well if I've flown with them enough since they are corpless.

I think it's distasteful for allies to try and poach members, especially since we are all working towards the same goals.

[Invelious]

It found it odd when people tried to poach me when I was the CEO of a corporation 

That happens when people view your corp and see a potential merge. Win the CEO, win the entire corp. Their poaching the corp

[BloodBird]

I'm having a really difficult time seeing headhunting as a bad thing.

It can be, in some cases.

The only case I can recall experiencing was back in the war between ASCN and BoB.

Now, if the other side of it has a better deal to offer and you like it, and are unhappy with you place, that's one thing. This was and felt totally different.

Before the war started in earnest people who had been around in ASCN for a long, long time were being selectively offered the 'deal-they-can't-refuse' by BoB members. Most of these took their offers with little to no thinking time. It was just about joining the 'top-dog' and getting off what some felt was a soon-to-be sinking ship.

When the war started off it was the same thing; whoever BoB decided was a 'good player' would be invited to join them, usually the effective and skilled PVP'ers. As such they drained their enemy of useful people, while at the same time gaining new members who knew all about the working of their current war-targets.

Now you may be thinking, 'totally legit', right? Well it would be if not for the general nature of how things went down. I'm not wholly sure on this because it's all second-hand info, but a good deal of people offered a place had to pay their way in. “You can join us (the winner side everyone believed unbreakable) but we want info first.” As such many who effectively left didn't just defect to an enemy actively during war, they offered intel on their former allies and friends to get this sweet, sweet deal. Some joined after the war was over, staying in the alliance only to feed boB intel on everything ASCN did. This went on for the entire war. Others joined as pets, paying for that 'right' with inaction during the war.

In such a regard I view, personally, head-hunting members of other corporations a despicable act; if you joined a corp or alliance you should have considered your picking seriously. You should have joined without any intentions of leaving whenever the going went hard. Now, joining a corp/alliance and discovering later that things don't work out as you had hoped leaves you two options. Fix it from within if possible, or if that don't work out, leave at a convenient time to said corp/alliance. In that order. Leaving to join an active war-target while in a war is usually considered 'defecting to the enemy' and frankly, in RL, that shit will get you shot, if captured. Now ofc, this si not RL, but a game, but the point remains.

There are fitting times and situations to offering others a place in your corp or considering leaving yours. And then there are less fitting times.

[Hamish Grayson]

CAIN has a very strict no poaching policy, but but personally I think it's valid.    This is Eve, you survive by taking from others and it's foolish not to do on to others as they are trying to do onto you.

[Valdezi]

Have experienced it and been accused of it. Never done it intentionally, though I can see why some people believe me to have done so.

This for me as well. I mentioned to another role-player that he'd look good in the ILF, and was rightfully chipped by that role-player's CEO.

As I said to the CEO in question, I was keen to see all pro-Intaki rp under the IPI banner, and got carried away.

It can be quite a small recruiting pool when one is seeking competent, mature, relaxed role-players.

[orange]

CAIN has a very strict no poaching policy, but but personally I think it's valid.    This is Eve, you survive by taking from others and it's foolish not to do on to others as they are trying to do onto you.

But they may unintentional poach. 

Avoiding poaching potential recruits is a reason I stay out of channels like CAINCOM,  I want to avoid the perception of actively poaching.

[Elsebeth Rhiannon]

Could people who think poaching is wrong explain what exactly they think constitutes poaching?

- hiring someone directly from any other corporation?
- hiring someone directly from an allied corp?
- mentioning to someone (allied?) casually that you'd definitely hire them if they applied?
- mentioning the same to someone you knew were considering leaving already?
- explicitly offering someone (allied?) a place in your corporation?
- trying to offer benefits to someone (allied?) so that they join your corporation?
- putting down their current corporation in order to get them to join?
- something else, what?