Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Seriphyn]

It may be a subconscious OOC projection of the "leading" Internet morality (religion bad, atheism good). As such, Amarr is associated with Christianity by virtue of being the most visible, and receives derision, whereas the Intaki and Minmatar thing is identified as "alternative", and thus receives lighter treatment, as RL alternative religions receive by the "leading" Internet morality.

[Vikarion]

It may be a subconscious OOC projection of the "leading" Internet morality (religion bad, atheism good). As such, Amarr is associated with Christianity by virtue of being the most visible, and receives derision, whereas the Intaki and Minmatar thing is identified as "alternative", and thus receives lighter treatment, as RL alternative religions receive by the "leading" Internet morality.

I don't think there's anything subconscious about it at all. On the internet, communists have a better rep than the monotheistic religions.

[Goshien]

People being hypocritical is perfectly normal. Besides being that active in "promoting" your religion is like asking people to try and prove you wrong if for no other reason then they hate you.

[Wanoah]

It may be a subconscious OOC projection of the "leading" Internet morality (religion bad, atheism good). As such, Amarr is associated with Christianity by virtue of being the most visible, and receives derision, whereas the Intaki and Minmatar thing is identified as "alternative", and thus receives lighter treatment, as RL alternative religions receive by the "leading" Internet morality.

I don't think there's anything subconscious about it at all. On the internet, communists have a better rep than the monotheistic religions.

You say that like there's something bad about Communism.

[BloodBird]

You say that like there's something bad about Communism.

This. However, it's an argument for another time and place.

Basically as far as I'm concerned the combination of 'fairy man in sky offering excuse' and the things said fairy man excuses leads people to bash Amarr in particular.

I find it amazing that so many seemingly anti-slavery like players end up joining factions like the Angels and Nation. I know there are several players who were in many ways anti-slavery and later ended up joining factions that pretty much do the slavery thing too.

This I suspect is based on a combination of the above factors of 'your religion is evil' and 'slavery is bad, and you promote it' combined with the ever present 'pirates are cool'.

Because of this religious slaver Amarrians get a lot of flak, all the time, while piratical, slave-holding Angels and mind-raping Sansha slavers who represent the 'perceived utopia' (a 'good' goal) don't get quite as much.

Also, most of the reason for the hype against the Sansha recently is due – you guessed it; incursions. When the truth is slapped in your face on a daily basis suddenly everyone care, suddenly everyone ALLWAYS cared. Where is the lynching-mob to torch every Angel stronghold? No-where to be found, because Amarrians are slavers, Sansha are evil cyborg kidnappers, and the angels?

They are cool Jack Sparrow-like pirates – why give them a hard time, even when one can argue that the slaves worst off anywhere is the Angel ones and those of the Serpentis. (They have plenty too; free labor after all) Sansha slaves have no idea they are slaves, and what can't feel can't suffer, while in theory it's only the 'bad' Holders who miss-treat their slaves in the empire. All besides the point though.

I'd blame our modern 'pirates are cool' thing for shielding other slavers leading to help funnel all the anti-religion, anti-slavery rage onto the Amarr.

/end rant

[Elsebeth Rhiannon]

Because of this religious slaver Amarrians get a lot of flak, all the time, while piratical, slave-holding Angels and mind-raping Sansha slavers who represent the 'perceived utopia' (a 'good' goal) don't get quite as much.

This is not only due to other players specifically targeting Amarr, though I am not denying that the monotheistic expansionist religion is an easy target.

There's other factors too, such as...

I have yet to see one Angel supporter who goes around telling others about how slave-trading is a pretty ok business if you do it right. This is partly, I suspect, because the vocal players you see on public RP channels (where this sort of stuff mostly goes on) don't want to play those aspects of organized crime, but rather play the cool smuggler pirate type who is really actually a good guy at heart and wouldn't harm a fly, except when he shoots first. In another part it is that for an Angel who actually does play those parts, going around advertising it does not make sense (while an Amarrian religious type would preach). Hence, it is brought up less, and so meets less opposition.

Regarding the Sansha supporters, I need to go a bit towards "you are doing it wrong" here and I apologize beforehand, but personally I find it hard to have any sort of IC dialogue with them, because the OOC expectations vary too much. With Sansha supporters, many of the vocal ones tend to go for "but we are all benevolent and the people were sort of taken voluntarily!", claiming even OOC that actually the raiding of a couple of million of your people were not all that bad. It is difficult to engage in any sort of RP from there beyond rolling eyes and setting them red. With Amarr religious types, we can start from a sort of common understanding what the actual mainstream Amarr religion is about, even where the view of the particular Amarrian is different, and then have an actual argument about the practical consequences of that, or the philosophical grounds for it, even about whether belief in the supernatural makes sense and why Voluval is Completely Different.

Etc.

[Julianus Soter]

Regarding pirates and slavery, I'll just leave this here.

People want to play what they want to play. And they ignore things about their factions to achieve that. Seeing what we want to see isn't anything new. And because we're capsuleers, we do have a degree of plausible deniability regarding what happens 'inside' a certain faction.

The key is, I think, removing the OOC stigmas/biases that have soaked into the roleplaying community on all sides about those various factions, and judge the state or roleplay objectively from there.

[Kaleigh Doyle]

A good start would be refraining from assumptions about the motivations of other players and why/how they make their arguments in-character. It's a slippery slope that leads nowhere good.

[Ghost Hunter]

Because of this religious slaver Amarrians get a lot of flak, all the time, while piratical, slave-holding Angels and mind-raping Sansha slavers who represent the 'perceived utopia' (a 'good' goal) don't get quite as much.

This is not only due to other players specifically targeting Amarr, though I am not denying that the monotheistic expansionist religion is an easy target.

There's other factors too, such as...

I have yet to see one Angel supporter who goes around telling others about how slave-trading is a pretty ok business if you do it right. This is partly, I suspect, because the vocal players you see on public RP channels (where this sort of stuff mostly goes on) don't want to play those aspects of organized crime, but rather play the cool smuggler pirate type who is really actually a good guy at heart and wouldn't harm a fly, except when he shoots first. In another part it is that for an Angel who actually does play those parts, going around advertising it does not make sense (while an Amarrian religious type would preach). Hence, it is brought up less, and so meets less opposition.

Regarding the Sansha supporters, I need to go a bit towards "you are doing it wrong" here and I apologize beforehand, but personally I find it hard to have any sort of IC dialogue with them, because the OOC expectations vary too much. With Sansha supporters, many of the vocal ones tend to go for "but we are all benevolent and the people were sort of taken voluntarily!", claiming even OOC that actually the raiding of a couple of million of your people were not all that bad. It is difficult to engage in any sort of RP from there beyond rolling eyes and setting them red. With Amarr religious types, we can start from a sort of common understanding what the actual mainstream Amarr religion is about, even where the view of the particular Amarrian is different, and then have an actual argument about the practical consequences of that, or the philosophical grounds for it, even about whether belief in the supernatural makes sense and why Voluval is Completely Different.

Etc.

I'm continually confused by your stance on this subject (which I believe I have seen reiterated else where).

I cannot ask you to name names for others, but would this perhaps involve me and my drive to making the Sansha more than baby eating evil doers?

[Akrasjel Lanate]

I'm not a spiritual person but i have how everyone criticize religion that it is bad.

[Myrhial Arkenath]

When you think about it, capsuleers are closely connected (literally) to the latest and best technology. I can kind of see how religion, at least the less practical types, suffers from this. From my personal experiences at least I can say that the more I learned in the fields of science, the less religion was "needed" to provide an answer and the answers became harder to believe (evolution theory versus the biblical genesis).

[Merdaneth]

Louella, perhaps you should see this disadvantage as an advantage too.

Many people are affected in an OOC sense when they are confronted with Amarr religious slavery. This causes them to respond with OOC-inspired arguments.

Its not easy for people to loathe piracy in the game, because our 'pirates are cool' from our own cultural reference frame, it is however easy for people to loathe religious slavers, the cultural reference frame is heavily biased against them.

RP-ing a faction/role that tends to evoke strong emotions can help one's roleplay too.  

[Seriphyn]

Pirates are most definitely, cool, yeah...

[Natalcya Katla]

On the rare occasions when I still find the time and motivation to log on (with Katla), I do play an utter atheist. If anything, she has more loathing for Intaki spiritualism than she does for the rest of the superstitious mumbo that's tossed around by people who ought to know better.

Incidentally, it's where her personality overlaps most closely with my own.

[BloodBird]

Pirates are most definitely, cool, yeah...

We know Seri, we know. But to many 'pirate' = Coolness.

The Charming vagabond out for his own good. The good-old-anti-hero there to help protect his 'mates'. The nice guy who would never let his homies down, though all else van be damned. The gentleman that steals out of need. The poor man who robs the fat, rich industrialists, And so on.

And as long as that image prevails there is hardly going to be many IC out-bursts yelling at Angel operatives for their support of an entity that mugs, kidnaps, murders, defiles and enslaves for their own profit, not when a not-so-cool theological Empire do the same for 'your own good'.

@ Natalcya

Nice to see your keeping an open mind here...