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[Dirk Smacker]

Roleplaying Amarr and Minmatar are pretty straight-forward.  You have themes that are easily identifiable: slavery, racial supremacy, religious zealotry, etc...  But with the Caldari and Gallente, you have a political conflict.  Most people yawn at that idea, hence the lack of roleplay in my opinion.  Personally, it's right up my alley.  I've been interested in foreign affairs since I could crawl and I'm very much into domestic politics.  So, when I chose Caldari for my combat main I went searching for a better grasp as to what I was fighting for and a better understanding of The State.  What I found didn't meet my expectations.  The way The State is described clashes with other source material, as well as their real-world definitions (i.e. the use of the term "corporate capitalism").  My knowledge of the terms described caused a lot of head-scratching with little source material to help.

So, my goal with this thread is to "scan down" the governmental structure of The State using both prime fiction and real-world examples, both past and present.  I have a bunch of stuff to spew all over this thread, and then I will be looking for feedback.  I will also be looking for hypothesis's as to the unanswered questions, as I anticipate a few blanks to fill in.

When this is done, I would like to someday write a roleplay primer for Caldari corporations.  After fleshing out the Caldari system, this could help those looking into Caldari rp more than what we have currently.

[Dirk Smacker]

Caldari governmental setup (leave Tibus Heth out for now):

OK, the Caldari State's economy is initially defined as corporate capitalism:

A state built on corporate capitalism, the Caldari State is run by a few mega-corporations which divide the state between them, controlling and ruling every aspect of society. Each corporation is made up of thousands of smaller companies, ranging from industrial companies to law firms. All land and real estate is owned by a company which leases it to the citizens, and government and policing are also handled by independent companies.

No argument on the economic part.  Large corps vastly dominate the marketplace, but what sets the Caldari apart is those very same corps also run the government.  The Gallente, by contrast, have a very aggressive government regulartory system to "protect" their citizens from evil corporations.  

However, that isn't a form of government.  

More from here:

The Caldari State stands for corporate capitalism in its purest form. There are eight great Corporations that together own more than 90% of all property within the State. Each of the corporation is made up of thousands of companies of various sizes and various sorts, ranging from simple mining companies to powerful police companies. There is no single, unified government as such, each corporation rules it's territories like their own kingdom with little or nor interference from the other corporations. In higher matters, such as in foreign policy towards the other empires, the Board of Directors, which consists of the CEOs of the eight major corporations, has the highest authority. The Board of Directors also makes sure that the social infrastructure of the State remains intact and settles all major quarrels between the corporations.

 

OK, the idea that eight highly-competitive mini-states can coexist in a harsh galaxy without something forcing them to abstain from armed conflict makes my head explode.  There has to be something holding them together, usually by force.  

Per Tomorrow A Dream, we get this:

...there is a great deal of historical data that suggests that even as far back as the time of the Raata-Oryioni empire thousands of years ago, the people who would later become the Caldari were already highly collectivistic in outlook and action.

Highly collectivist in outlook and action?  Then why are they so competitive?  It shouldn't matter to the Caldari whether they win or lose something as long as it helps out the greater good, right?  And how does one think state first - corp second when they are basically isolated from anyone not in their corporation.

Here's the thing, in order to maintain the level of patriotism and sense of a higher goal you need a way to conclusively verify proper indoctrination is being achieved by all of the Big Eight corps.  You can definitely make an argument that Tibus Heth is doing that currently, but what about the system he became executor of?  

(to be continued)  

[Elsebeth Rhiannon]

OK, the idea that eight highly-competitive mini-states can coexist in a harsh galaxy without something forcing them to abstain from armed conflict makes my head explode.  There has to be something holding them together, usually by force.

Would outside threat - the Gallente Federation - work?

My guess is the Minmatar tribes and factions would be at war with each other too, if not for the need to unite against outsiders...

[Dirk Smacker]

Would outside threat - the Gallente Federation - work?

My guess is the Minmatar tribes and factions would be at war with each other too, if not for the need to unite against outsiders...

Absolutely, but Tibus Heth ties everything in a neat little bow.  Unless I'm reading the timeline wrong, it is nearly 250 years between wars with the Gallente.

My early guess is that patriotism from the first war was very strong and it took years for school indoctrination to fade away from that. 

Here's a question:  Are Caldari schools run by separate corporations?  If so, I could see contracts with the CBD including certain patriotic lesson plans to ensure a uniform sense of nationalism.  However, I've always had the impression the corporations are responsible for schooling their workers.

I'm basically looking for common ties to bind Caldari between the war and Heth.     

[Seriphyn]

Take a look at my Gallente PF guide when you can, it might help you out here

Actually, Federal regulation of evil corporations isn't always prevalent, it depends what government is in power. Federal political attitudes vary from European social democracy (welfare state, regulated corporations, good of the many) and American rugged individualism. Chrons like "Lost Stars" and such reveal a very "evil corporation" slant to Gallentean corporations. Their attitudes can be very similar to the Practical bloc.

Amongst the Gallente/Caldari political conflict storyline, there are many parallels and similarities between the two. The differences is that the Gallente have a military-industrial complex (if I'm using it in the right context) that influences a so-called 'democratic' government, controls apparently free and individualistic lives and so on. Whereas the Caldari, the corporation directly influences and controls overtly.

One massive element of the State, IMO, is their "silent culture". From an old news item about Gallente book-burning, and from watching a MindClash match in The Burning Life, the Caldari tend to do things in silence. They don't cheer or shout, they just watch while being completely quiet. Very Japanese and East Asian in this regard.

[orange]

1. The Caldari Dialogues written by Svetlana Scarlet.

2. Developing Caldari Culture and Institutions, again by Svetlana

Highly collectivist in outlook and action?  Then why are they so competitive?  It shouldn't matter to the Caldari whether they win or lose something as long as it helps out the greater good, right?  And how does one think state first - corp second when they are basically isolated from anyone not in their corporation.

Caldari Prime is a harsh world.  At the beginning of Caldari society forming, people could not go outside their habitats while the world underwent automated terraformation.  Survival required collectivism, a willingness to accept personal sacrifice to enable the continuance of your community, the habitat simply could not support more than X number of people and those not contributing to the future were a burden that could cost the community its very existence.

But this also breeds a selfishness on group levels.  One group must take from another to grow beyond its current means, there is no win-win, only zero-sum.

But this is 1000s of years in the past.  Fast forward to the being the lower-tech culture in a first contact scenario, include the radical "modernization" of Caldari culture by the Gallente.  The very foundations upon which Caldari civilization is built are consumed and destroyed to catch up with these outsiders and exist reach parity.  The goal, the driving motivation linking back to first contact between neighboring terrformation habs, parity with your neighbor or absorption by the larger power.

The Big 8 are a product of this very motivation - corporations working towards their own survival and building themselves to reach parity with their competitors or face absorption by them.

Absorption is the common Caldari cultural fear, shared across the diverse cultures of the 8 megacorproations, and the Caldari nation as a whole.  Gallente/Amarr cultural imperialism (Reclaiming) is a a unifying fear for the Caldari.  This does not mean the Caldari will not at every level fight for the continuance of their group* (in priority order team, program, division, company, corporation, mega-corporation, State); there is however the realization that there will be winners and losers.  Below the corporation-level, there is likely lots of dynamism created by the interplay of these groups in a highly competitive environment.  At the mega-corporation level, the sub-corporate entities are the causalities of propaganda, marketing, contracting, and shadow wars.

The State is the product of the Big 8 realizing without a collective front, they would all be absorbed.  So instead of facing absorption by an outside culture, they closed ranks and created their own "entity" in which to be absorbed.

The Lai Dai view is: "If it is good for Lai Dai, it is good for the State."  The SuVee view is similar: "If it is good for SuVee, it is good for the State.  This does not preclude these two entities from having contrary goals they both believe are good for the State.

*Ancient Caldari the likely priority is family, hab-clan, hab-kingdom, etc.

Are Caldari schools run by separate corporations?

Yes.

School of Applied Knowledge is likely operated by Lai Dai primarily and probably has a Patriot slant, eschewing foreign trade and design, focusing on traditional methods.

Science and Trade Institute is likely operated by Ishukone primarily and probably has a Liberal slant, encouraging free trade and exploring the application of new/foreign methodology.

The State War Academy appears to be largely independent and likely serves all the State's security corporations as well as the Caldari Navy.

OK, the idea that eight highly-competitive mini-states can coexist in a harsh galaxy without something forcing them to abstain from armed conflict makes my head explode.  There has to be something holding them together, usually by force.

Would outside threat - the Gallente Federation - work?

At this point, the Gallente Federation is one of many outside threats holding the Big 8 together.  The Empire and Republic are on the same list and each dealt with slightly differently due to history.

The warming of relations between the Kingdom and Empire is a bad thing from a Caldari perspective; as the Empire's influence and power grows (versus declines), the alliance with them becomes less and less useful in creating parity between the 4 major Empires.  Encouraging the splintering of the Federation and Empire reduces the two major powers to a position of parity with the State and likely will result in an upswing in internal conflict in the State.

[Dirk Smacker]

Awesome responses!

OK, I think I can almost buy the Caldari system as written.  Basically, I think of each megacorp as the modern Chinese State.  Massive patriotic indoctrination in the schools, large-scale shady market manipulation, ability to completely shut down a lead-filled toy factory instantly because it embarrassed them (like smaller corps getting dissolved if they are a detriment to The State), turning a blind eye to the Apple factory putting up nets outside the windows to combat a rash of suicides, etc... The Big 8 all use military strength as a deterrent and markets as the battleground, a combination of the two to gain influence.

And as for my questions about collectivism vs competitiveness, I guess if you can isolate a populous to a planet or station and closely monitor everyone, you can channel the two the way you want.

That "glue" which Heth brought could also have been satisfied with the Caldari's success in the marketplace for so long.  The unifying factor could have been pride in being superior while their system got so firmly entrenched that when the capsuleers came and nearly led to their downfall, there was no possibility of the Big 8 turning on themselves.  Those at the top had too much of a good thing going.     

So I guess that's it for Pre-Heth.  Ridged, collective corps united forever by a sense of nationalism and fear of the enemy, competing brutally on the market with one another, which makes them superior (in their eyes) to the other empires.

[Vikarion]

I wouldn't take either the Asian motif in general or the Chinese analogy too far. Asian capitalism, in general, has had heavy government involvement, whereas the Caldari State, on the other hand, has a very small and limited government. In addition, drawing too many cultural analogies is also a bad idea - for example, there are many American sports where people tend to stay somewhat quiet, and Americans are often huge gamblers - does that mean that Caldari culture is just like American culture? No.

In regards to collectivism versus individualism, the Caldari seem to embrace a version of both. Remember, they originated on a planet that presented them with extreme challenges, such as, perhaps, the need to let some members die to save the whole. This could be manifest as a personal motivation to be the best, while those who were old, weak, or ill would have a responsibility to remove themselves from the group in order to protect the group. In other words, it might be said that Caldari are culturally and socially collective, but individually competitive. I think a great example of this is/was the United States during World War 2 (for the most part).

Remember also in the PF that there are numerous smaller corporations and businesses within the State. The Big Eight are just that. So there are likely thousands of smaller entities, all of whom are affected by the Megas, but many somewhat independent of them.

[Shintoko Akahoshi]

I think it might be better to view the Caldari megacorps as akin to the modern Russian megacorps: Gazprom and the like.  Like the megacorps, the Russian corps operate with the blessing of the State, but the Russian corps have much more power in and of themselves.  An argument can be made that the current Russian government exists more to serve the big corporations than visa versa.

My own view on the relationship of the megacorps to the rest of the State is that, like Vikarion says, they are simply the most successful of the current crop of corporations.  The State doesn't discourage entrepreneurship, nor does it discourage people moving from one corporation to another to seek better opportunities.

[Silas Vitalia]

I actually think a lot of the State and Federal RP possiblities are incredibly sophisticated and deep.  Since you all don't have quite as many of the 'in your face' issues of the Amarr and Matari, your RP plot lines have the potential to be much more intricate and nuanced.

[BloodBird]

I actually think a lot of the State and Federal RP possiblities are incredibly sophisticated and deep.  Since you all don't have quite as many of the 'in your face' issues of the Amarr and Matari, your RP plot lines have the potential to be much more intricate and nuanced.

Problem - Amarr vs Minmatar is easy to spot and define, a tad 'shallow' in some ways. This is by no means true, but the deeper end is ofthen harder to see than the shallow one, and the Federarl/State shallow end hardly exist from a first-time apparence point. Only when people delve into the conflict between them do they discover that the Fed-State RP angle can be quite extensive, but they have to be 'in' it to do that. The Amarr/Minmatar RP is easier to spot and much, much easier to define.

I suspect one of the reasons the State has more roleplayers than the Fed is mostly, there are far more of them.

On the other hand, by defining the State and what Seri did with the Fed people are offered a bit more of an understanding of thier factions or other factions. I'm hoping it can help make people more aware fo the possibilities presented here, becaue so far I've theorized dozens of rather unique angles from Fed-aligned RP alone.

It would also be very, very sweet ot get a good definition on the Republic as opposed to 'just' Minmatar and the Empire as opposed to Amarrian mindset, and possibly those as well.

[Akikio L]

I've just finished watching the first season of Blue Bloods and it made me curious about who/what is the police of the Caldari State. So I went to the chronicles and re-read Masks of authority...It just gave me more questions   The megacorp security forces seem to be more military and nature than police forces. The closest to police work I guess would be protecting property and assets of their respective parent Mega.

They are also granted legal authority to act as police proxies within corporate jurisdiction, though in all cases where regional police have a presence their authority supersedes that of the corporate police.

...uhm, so "regional police"...ok, who are they? What State institution do they belong to? Where goes the line of "corporate jurisdiction"? If a Home Guard officer/soldier/guard(?) witnesses a crime commited outside KK jurisdiction (territory?) is he required to interfer or is he even allowed to interfer, if the crime is commited within another Mega's territory for example? Where do the different forces bring suspects, their respective own holding cells? What sort of courts exist? What does the part the part "where regional police have a presence" really mean, is it that they happen to be on the scene or that there might not be a police presens at all in some parts of the State? Well, I'll stop here but you can see the question keep on piling up   I also see potential for insteresting stories here.

[Seriphyn]

In Masks of Authority huh? So recent piece (not obscure, possibly retconned one) saying regional police has authority over megas...and yeah they do seem more military/para than police.

During the Ducia Foundry mining incident, there was talk of Annaro police, with no reference to who the police actually were

[orange]

In the build up to EA, there was an article that mentioned a Tribunal Justice

commented retired Lai Dai Tribunal Justice Ulia Kaarputen.

Note a week prior I did a quick thread about punishing employees (story arc) and made up the "Lai Dai Employee Justice Code".

There is also clear indications that the security/property protection roles of the 8 Mega-PMCs have evolved as the Mega's have taken on the role of governance.

The first line of Mask of Authority is

Since the early days of the Caldari State, the eight corporate police forces of the Chief Executive Panel have played an important role in Caldari society.

Lets take the full paragraph that the snippet comes from:

These agencies also perform the more mundane duties of a mega-corporation’s internal security force. They ceaselessly patrol the perimeters of their territories; they conduct counterstrikes against pirates and terrorists; and they are responsible for security on every ship, outpost, station, moon and planetside facility owned by their mother corporations. They are also granted legal authority to act as police proxies within corporate jurisdiction, though in all cases where regional police have a presence their authority supersedes that of the corporate police.

I argue that internal to the State, true regional police lack a presence and the Mega-PMCs are the regional police (game mechanics streamline this by making them all the same name).

But the Mega-PMCs "are responsible for security on every ship, outpost, station, moon and planetside facility owned by their mother corporations."  To me this means that in places Vlillirier, there is Wirykomi Peace Corps presence, but they are not regional police (unless Vlillirier is occupied?) (Link) and might not respond as they would in State territory.  I think only 2 of the Big 8 have no presence outside the State (Lai Dai & Hyasyoda), the rest of the Big 8 have security/police forces spread across the cluster, from Syndicate to Devoid.

Edit: Adjusted for link.

Short version - the PMCs are still the police in the State, the corporations own everything anyway.  It is outside the State where the regional police authority supersedes the corporate police.

[Seriphyn]

From this, it seems the mega-PMCs do have a presence abroad...