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[Saikoyu]

Figured this was about the right spot, please move if it isn't.

This came because of a though spawned by the what is your quest thread.  And I've never really found a good one elsewhere.  So, I'm not looking for a guide to surviving in null sec, or living in it.  What I am looking for is a guide or a plan of what it takes for a corp or alliance to move out to null sec, claim a system, and keep it.  So, for the null sec dwellers among you, basically:

How many people do you need?  Do I need a lot more if I'm holding two systems rather than one, or could I hold ten systems with the same amount as one system roughly?

What type of people do you need?  I assume PvPers, and industry, but what is a good mix?  Any special people or types one should look for?

Should you do moon mining?  Assuming you have a low class moon, is it worth it?  What other limits, if any, are there?

What is a good level of defence to hold a system?  Are supercapitals mandatory?  Is "renting" from one of the larger allinaces or groups a good idea or mandatory?  Should one expect to get smashed even in a "bad" system?

For for the RP stuff.  Has there ever been an RP corp or alliance that has made a point of  taking a system and running it as a brand new government?  Given PI, Incarna, and in the future, Dust 514, is there anything that really prevents a group from taking this kind of stance IC or OOC? 

Anyway, thanks in advance.

[Milo Caman]

Given PI, Incarna, and in the future, Dust 514, is there anything that really prevents a group from taking this kind of stance IC or OOC? 

Anyway, thanks in advance.

Can't say I know much, but chances are the existing powerblocs will come and stomp on things for the hell of it.

[Grr]

Realistically you may need to ally with a larger group, possibly one of the power blocs for this to work for a small alliance.  That might need you to "bend" your RP to fit in unless your really lucky.  I've never been lucky myself sadly.

As for numbers, its not really as simple as you need 2x more if you have two systems instead of one.  If somebody wants your space you might need as many as 1000 people to stop them.  If a larger powerbloc REALLY wants your space super caps will make a huge difference too.

Moon mining can be significantly more profitable than lowsec because of the huge reduction in POS fuel consumption but obviously the risk increases significantly.

Sadly dominion didn't live up to its promises and caused more trouble for the little guys than it prevented but if they do get around to implementing some of the features they promised things could turn the other way.  One significant feature that never got implemented was a rental system that would almost encourage powerblocs to rent out systems to smaller groups.

[orange]

Slightly different approach; how many active characters should a system have operating regularly in it before it is overburdened?

This of course varies between systems.

Most players busy themselves with NPC ratting and therefore claim large areas, but low end moons sit empty in sov systems because the holding alliance does not consider it worth the effort (despite the 25% fuel savings vs a lowsec operation that splits even).

Has there ever been an RP corp or alliance that has made a point of taking a system and running it as a brand new government?

When Dominion was released, I gave this a lot of thought.  If corporations operate as profit-seeking entities, then an alliance can operate as a government running a system.  Starbase operators would be required to pay some percentage of fuel savings (say 5%) to the alliance for operating; there is also some minimum number of paying starbases.

There is also the cost of taking a system and how long it will take the cost savings to make it worthwhile.  There is a minimum cost of 1 billion isk just to take the system, not including ship loses or the profitable Starbases.  You also have to hold the system for a certain length of time to gain the profits.  It takes 16 profitable non-faction large towers 16 weeks to produce an ROI on the minimum cost for taking an occupied system.  If you use faction towers or small towers the number needed goes up.

I said all that to say this: have a plan, have an industrial backbone willing to abuse the system's resources.  An industrial backbone working to abuse the system's resources will likely be able to pay for the system's defense sooner than taxing rating income.

[Saikoyu]

Well that gives me some things to think about.  Just doing some back of the envelope figuring, I figure 16 POSes would need about 70 people to run 23 7.  And the ever present fear that someone will come along and stomp you because they can.

To follow up on what was said, can low sec moon mining be profitable, or at least break even, assuming a use of PI for some of the fuel?

[Casiella]

Please don't make the mistake of assuming that the fuel you produce planetside is "free". It may not require cash flow, but you're giving up the option of selling it on the market, and thus it costs you.

[orange]

To follow up on what was said, can low sec moon mining be profitable, or at least break even, assuming a use of PI for some of the fuel?

It depends on the moon(s) and the market really.  And these can be very dynamic and attempting to chase them can lead to financial loses.

[John Revenent]

More then often you have to kneel to overlords and become a pet to claim even one system, even if it is not claimed alot of the alliances out there will remove you because it is within their "Sphere of Influence". To hold anything you need at least 500 people, and supercaps is also a plus.. Even then its very hard to go alone.

As for POS's I-RED operates some 20ish POS's with only 4 operators (3 Jump Frieghters as well).. its easier then one would think if you have a good logistical plan in place, and yes we have figured out a way to reduce costs by 85%-90% depending on the area for PI fuel.

[Borza]

Slightly different approach; how many active characters should a system have operating regularly in it before it is overburdened?

This of course varies between systems.

It doesn't vary much with upgrades.
If you run anoms as gangs of around 20-30, with mostly BS and some smaller ships like AF/Recons/HACs to kill other ships and protect from roaming PvPers you can make insane money - more than any but the most optimal setup running them solo and in much more safety. Esp since you don't need faction fit marauders to make the big isk
So easily several hundred character alliance in a couple of fully upgraded systems if you run the anoms in such a way.

Please don't make the mistake of assuming that the fuel you produce planetside is "free". It may not require cash flow, but you're giving up the option of selling it on the market, and thus it costs you.

OTOH in deep nullsec it might as well be free. Only market is to your own corps generally. What you say is certainly true for Empire, and somewhat for nullsec close to empire - though dangers of 0.0 logistics mean you're usually still better producing and using your own rather than hauling it to a hub.

[orange]

Please don't make the mistake of assuming that the fuel you produce planetside is "free". It may not require cash flow, but you're giving up the option of selling it on the market, and thus it costs you.

OTOH in deep nullsec it might as well be free. Only market is to your own corps generally. What you say is certainly true for Empire, and somewhat for nullsec close to empire - though dangers of 0.0 logistics mean you're usually still better producing and using your own rather than hauling it to a hub.

I would think it worthwhile to pay your alliance members something for doing PI work.  I definitely agree Jita prices are right out, but establishing a local buy order (at your Outpost or nearby NPC Station) seems like a good way to distribute Moon Goo revenue to the "little people."  Especially if they turn around and spend it on T2 hardware someone else in the alliance built.

[Bacchanalian]

Holding nullsec guide:

Bring 3000 friends that can fly drakes, carriers, and supercarriers.  A few titans helps for bridging.

Take sov.

Profit.

Alternatively:  Bring 3000 friends, that can fly drakes, carriers, and supercarriers.  Grovel to the nearest power bloc that has empty systems nearby.  Work out a renters agreement whereby you pay them 23424334 billion a month to hold that system for them.  Hold your breath and pray when another powerbloc comes along to stomp on your sandcastle and hope that your system is deemed enough of a strategic asset to your powerbloc that they try to do something about it.


Why on earth would you want to get into the sov game?

[Casiella]

I looked at the feasibility of this around the time frame of Dominion. Eventually, I decided that colonizing a W-space system was far more profitable, interesting, and achievable than nullsec sovereignty. This holds particularly true for relatively small organizations; if you have 3000 pilots, your calculations may work out differently.

[Vlad Cetes]

I looked at the feasibility of this around the time frame of Dominion. Eventually, I decided that colonizing a W-space system was far more profitable, interesting, and achievable than nullsec sovereignty. This holds particularly true for relatively small organizations; if you have 3000 pilots, your calculations may work out differently.

Very true, if you have the aptitude for it and a core group of people dedicated, WH space is more profitable.

[Esna Pitoojee]

After thinking about this for a bit, I think the most important thing that I can't stress enough is logistical capability.

Logistics of holding a 0.0 system typically comes with three basic problems:

1 - The actual pathway up and down from your system to highsec (or the closest market hub). At some point or another, you're going to have to fly this pathway. So, how far is it to highsec? How much of that trip is through nullsec? Lowsec? Are any of those systems 'chokepoints' or systems with high levels of pirate activity? And are there good, quiet systems for you to set up relay POSes or dock your capitals at to form a cyno network? What about alternate routes if somebody decides to move in on your main route one night?

2 - Jump-capable logistics. Carriers are an absolute must in this respect, as are a couple of jump freighters (I'd seriously reccomend 3 or 4 to be safe). Remember those cyno spots from part 1? Have backup routes plotted and well staffed with cyno alts; nothing sucks more than dragging your JF pilot on line just to discover one of his relays isn't manned. Practice cynoing at a distance from the POS and using webs to speed the cap/JF over toward the POS - it's considerably safer than cynoing at the edge of the bubble and puttering in.

3 - The neighbors - give the locals a once-over. If they won't leave you be (they probably won't) consider renting (although Vlad does give a fairly accurate description of the perils of renting, some alliances will work out relatively fair deals that can give you some experience and fun times). If they don't want to rent/are actively hostile, can you at least work out a non-sov deal? (i.e., you will raid each other, but not attempt to claim sov). If not, can you find someone else else interested in the space who'd be willing to cover you?



Finally, I'll make two more comments:
First, politness never hurt anyone. In fact, I've found it can save you quite a bit. Be polite to diplos, neighbors, passers-by, and even targets - sometimes it won't gain you anything, but I've seen blue standings established and targets passed on simply on the basis of being polite and friendly to the other party in local. Keep in mind also that there's a difference between sucking up to and being polite.
Second, your first attempt will not be successful. Do not be disheartened when your attempt at creating an alliance crashes and burns horribly - it happens to everyone. I seriously reccomend joining up with another alliance before trying to create your own to gain an understanding of the challenges you will face in nullsec.

[John Revenent]

NPC space is not a bad starting area as well.. just saying.