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[Ken]

People might choose to follow the sansha ...

Excellent reasons!

After all, if the whole world were painted in shades of gray it would make for a rather dull world.

What are you trying to say about my EVE?!?

So, yes, I fear the Sansha more.

'sokay, the Master will vanquish your fear. 

(and commute your soul to dust (514))

I'm more or less with Ulph here. While there might be circumstantial evidence that there is more to the Nation than simple borg-like Evil, there is direct and explicit evidence in PF that the Sansha are doing stuff to people against their will that makes said people so afraid they rather die and kill their children than risk it. If you take just TBL descriptions of the Nation as basis of what is true, it does not indeed seem the fears are misplaced entirely.

Well, they'd be rather less compelling as bad guys if the threat of their imminent arrival made people bust out laughing...

This does not mean all Sansha followers are evil people, of course. People can do hideous stuff out of good motives. But the good intentions do not make that stuff less hideous. I think it would be more useful for Sansha supporter players to invent justifications that these characters use to explain themselves the evil they do than it is to try and think of ways to convince NPCs or other PCs that Sansha are actually fairly fluffy.

That is probably the heart of the faction's potential as a dynamic and interesting subject.  We all get that what the Sansha do and the way their society functions is anathema to the values that built and support our real lives.  Seri's up there :lolling: about my DPRK analogy, but I don't think it's that far off.  The exploration of what makes people serve Nation willingly, happily, and with a self-assurance of their own beneficence by doing so is what pulls me toward the faction.

they probably are more complex than e.g. the intro video alone suggests.

Of course they are.  The FW storyline was (is?) much more complex than the Empyrean Age trailer might suggest.

--break--

Ultimately, I think Nation provides the RPer/gamer/writer an opportunity to see human beings doing things that strike virtually all of us as fundamentally inhuman or unnatural (moreso even than slavery or hematophagy) and confront the questions:

Why would you do this?

How could you do this?

Because people (in the real world) inevitably do the sociopathic sorts of things that elicit those questions is perhaps the root of the discomfort some feel with play acting the role of a Nation loyalist.  I'm not saying Sansha loyalist characters are all sociopaths, but they have internalized a morality and social compass that is fundamentally different from that which prevails in the rest of New Eden and in the real world.  I think they are likely the most challenging characters to RP, but potentially the most rewarding to the player and to the setting because they put a living, interactive face on very chilling thoughts and actions, first among which are the idea that the traditional concepts of the human body and mind are not in any way sacred.

[Ulphus]

Ultimately, I think Nation provides the RPer/gamer/writer an opportunity to see human beings doing things that strike virtually all of us as fundamentally inhuman or unnatural (moreso even than slavery or hematophagy) and confront the questions:

Why would you do this?

How could you do this?

Sure. That's fine. But then I'm a little surprised at the occasional Sansha supporter going OOC "But why does everyone hate us?" and I'm less likely to socialise in places where Sansha supporters are common. That does seem to be a minority position, but hey, such is life.

[Amann Karris]

After all, if the whole world were painted in shades of gray it would make for a rather dull world.

What are you trying to say about my EVE?!?

That I prefer to think of the individuals, and not the faction; that I think about the human painting, the precious tableau of human experience, and not the broad strokes of Empires and Factions.

What would you do if death were no longer an obstacle?

That's why Jita 4-4 is my favorite chronicle; it's about a person, and how they perceive the world, and how that world perceives them.  Which could be a metaphor for EVE itself.  We all see EVE from our particular perspectives, and in the case of Sansha's Nation, it's interesting how we project on them what we want.

How can a faction portrayed in such a straightforward manner be interpreted in so many ways?  How can every interpretation be seen as truth to those that interpret it as such?  Wonderfully deep and immersive stuff in my opinion.  It gives a pretty good insight into the human psyche, both individually and in respect to group interaction.

[Bacchanalian]

Okay, I have a quick question.

What's up with the god-moding?  "HAY GIES WE WERE TOTALLY SUCCESSFUL EVEN THOUGH WE WERE ALL CLOAKED PEEING OURSELVES, WE PLAYED GI JOE PLANETSIDE AND BEAT THE SANSHAS I PROMISE!!11!one!"

Can I post a thread saying Stimulus forces preempted those of FDU and SF and stole all the good-looking female virgins off the planet for my brothel?  What's to stop me from doing so?  Who's going to prove me wrong and how? 

[Julianus Soter]

Agreed with bacch tbh.  

This is why things in space matter. If anything the Pandemic Legion thread makes 'more' sense.

[Louella Dougans]

there weren't any dropships in space either

The whole event thing, other than the shooting at the npcs/occasional carrier has been at times very

Sansha > Dropships!
Player > Countermeasures!
Sansha > Indeed
Player > :monocle:
Passer by > lolrp

which is

You can post whatever you like, and there is nothing to stop you, no-one to prove you wrong, because there is nothing physical to work with. It is all agreement that "these things happened". If you don't agree, then v0v

[Casiella]

I don't believe anybody has tried to suggest that this stuff should replace in-space shooting. But it certainly does supplement it, just as Soter's run for VP and associated Fed Constitutional amendments does.

This holds even more true when the players just note what they tried and CCP event staff determine the results, as when somebody tried the grav ECM on the wormholes. Players make an attempt and the game masters (in the traditional RP sense, not in the specific job title at CCP sense) determine the results.

So what's the problem again?

[Jade Constantine]

I don't see how it can be "god-modding" when an in-game tool and investment of resources is used to address a plotline that is acknowledged by the events crew as influential to the progress of events.

[...]

[ 18:11:26 ] Slave Endoma01 > Dropships experiencing resistance.
[ 18:11:34 ] Slave Umokka01 > Evolving tactics.
[ 18:13:03 ] Slave Umokka01 > Dropship squadrons 23, 28, 29 reporting resistance.
[ 18:14:07 ] Slave Endoma01 > Fortified emplacements on the planet's surface engaging dropships. Evolving tactics.
[ 18:15:01 ] Slave Umokka01 > Planetary defences in excess of estimates. Evolving tactics.

[...]

[ 18:29:31 ] Slave Umokka01 > Planetary populations within dropzones are evacuating via capsuleer infrastructure.

[...]

[ 18:51:31 ] Slave Umokka01 > Dropship squadrons 1 through 50 returning from surface. 16% capacity.

[...]

[ 19:01:50 ] Slave Umokka01 > Remaining dropship squadrons rallying at portal alpha. 19% capacity. 23,000 souls uplifted for Nation.

[...]

As roleplayers we need to use all our tools available to make a point when we choose. If anyone does want to be profoundly anti-RP about it, we could point out that the planetary spaceport infrastructure is MORE REAL than the Sansha dropships (which are purely RP constructs) whereas the PI infrastructure is "real" (ie paid for with isk and deployed through in-game means) But I note that element of situation is not questioned by the posters above.

Still, worth remember that not every element of the setting is about capsuleers. And for an organization like Star Fraction that is very interested in the fate of baseline humanity we need tools to interact with non-capsuleer impacting plotlines to properly honour our RP ideals and principles. PI gives a way to do this at the moment with the credibility of in-game investment. I can't see how thats a bad thing.

Anybody takes issue with it. Well, you know where the wardec button is.

[Mizhara]

I see no problem with the interaction performed so far. Granted, I only have third party knowledge on the matter so I can't say anything conclusive. Game mechanics only go so far and sometimes one quite simply has to go that little extra mile through common sense alone. If there's planetary installations I see no problem with a corp or alliance doing some RP through those 'opportunity doorways', since it's hardly an inconceivable chain of events.

I am just hungering for the planetary bombardment option for the capsuleers who're willing to go far enough to effectively employ the Scorched Earth tactic against the Sansha. Deprive them of their goal entirely through complete and utter destruction of their prey.

[Seriphyn]

Likewise, for Oruse II, subsequent to Doctor Illuminatus and myself announcing our PI structures on the ground....

[22:12:34] Citizen Astur  Dropship squadrons 1 through 200 reporting resistance. Deploying additional reinforcements from portals alpha and beta.

[22:18:40] Citizen Astur  Dropship squadrons 1 through 200 returning from surface. 74% capacity.

[22:28:48] Citizen Astur  Dropship squadrons 1 through 200 returning from surface. 84% capacity.

[22:39:10] Citizen Astur  Dropship squadrons 1 through 200 returning from surface. 98% capacity. Portals secure.

So...? As Jade was said with Deltole, it was acknowledged by the CCP actors.

[Julianus Soter]

Um.

Not the people in your cargohold. Which was the point.

The local communications are also extremely ambiguous, probably due to the limited level of capsuleer involvement in it. Deltole was, on the other hand, explicit because more people actually participated.

Of course, someone self-destructed a freighter inside a wormhole with no Sansha response whatsoever.

[Seriphyn]

Am not decisively saying IC nor OOC that that was successful, for obvious reasons.

However, THIS, was acknowledged. These live events aren't about who's the baddest FC. It's a roleplay event. Roleplay is make believe.

If you're going to discredit the PI angle, then you can go about and invalidate the dropships too.

[Julianus Soter]

"Prior to the attack, Eleutherian Guard pilot Seriphyn Inhonores and Anslo of First Flying Wing Inc claim to have attempted an evacuation of Oruse II, but the Archon carrier, The Ifrit, was destroyed by Rote Kapelle forces.
. . .

The True Citizen leading the assault, Citizen Astur, claimed to have successfully "uplifted" a significant portion of the planet's population some time before a heavy Pandemic Legion fleet entered the system and engaged and destroyed the majority of the Sansha forces, including Astur's own Wyvern super-carrier, though an alleged third-party report published by Pandemic Legion pilot Elize Randolph today claims that the population were saved. There has so far been no statement by planetary authorities to verify the claims of either side."

So it looks like all that can be proved was spaceships shooting things. Like we've been saying all along.

[Seriphyn]

Am not decisively saying IC nor OOC that that [the carrier evacuation] was successful, for obvious reasons.

You are arguing against a point I have already conceded, and ignoring the other element of PI defence

[Julianus Soter]

There is no explicit mention of PI defenses on Oruse. And need I remind you that my character had to bring up the idea to land military forces on the planet in the intel channel, which was apparently an afterthought of the 'evacuation' plan?