Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Vikarion]

Ah. Let me explain a little of my own experience of this, and you can consider whether this is something you recognize.

These days, it's rare that I have "nightmares." I'm at home with my own imagination; very little in my dreams scares me. The exception is when a dream scenario has me doing harm to my friends or family. When that happens (once or twice a year), I wake up gasping and covered in sweat, literally sick at the very concept of such an action.

I can imagine stabbing my wife to death with a rusty ice pick. Doing so induces a sick feeling in the pit of my stomach-- not like nausea; it's more like falling. Similarly, I have a hard time turning away from people in genuine need; doing so is a wrench, twisting against my own instincts. Physically, it feels a bit like pulling a magnet off a refrigerator (if the magnet's about two inches above my belly button), and I usually feel faintly unwell for a few minutes after.

This is, as I said, interesting, because I have the same emotional response to the idea of causing harm to a loved one as I do to the subject of dryer lint - virtually none whatsoever. Now, don't misunderstand, I certainly don't want to do such things (I very much enjoy having certain people around), but besides my learned moral code, there isn't anything except reason and fear of punishment that prevents me from happily engaging in violence against those who irritate me.

This isn't to say that I can't feel empathy. I'm not a sociopath, and I don't consider myself superior to others (well...let's be honest - I try not to). It's just that I don't feel any innate compunction to avoid harming others - my unwillingness to do so is based entirely upon my beliefs and logic. I also don't think I'm that different from everyone else, so I suspect that most people's visceral reaction to such things is also taught, not innate.

Or it could be that it is innate, and I merely trained it out of myself in my continual efforts to divorce my thinking processes from my emotions.

Actually, the kind of evil I fear most is decentralized evil. Diligent evil is apt to get itself caught; decentralized evil is the kind of vicious bastardy that cannot be traced back to any one person, and it's much, much harder to stop.

Unethical corporate decisions nobody takes responsibility for but everybody goes along with because they all want to be "team players." That's decentralized evil, and it's currently rampant. I somewhat doubt Nike's board of directors gets together and discusses how best to ensure that their shoes are constructed in sweatshops. Probably, they just discuss how to keep prices low....

I'd have to disagree. In part, what I mean by "diligent" evil might also be termed "competent" evil, the sort of evil that, even if it fails, manages to do irreversible and widespread harm. Decentralized evil is usually incidental - Nike isn't setting out to harm people, and, considering whether there is other work available for those workers, may not be harming them (according to them) as outside observers believe. Nazism, on the other hand, was very centralized, and very efficient at disposing of people.

This is why I tend to view your statement in regards to fearing governments less than corporations as the equivalent of someone saying that they worry more about the cold virus than they do about malaria. This is, of course, a personal evaluation, but companies, as harmful as they can be, have an incentive not to kill their customer base. Governments have much less of one, and no (internal to their system of operation) incentive not to kill everyone not under their purview. In the 20th century, governments managed to kill more people for various ideological reasons than any company or religion has in the history of humanity. Can the latter do harm? Certainly. But when a serial killer is sleeping in the guest room, the thief stealing your chickens is...less of a priority.

Unless you really, really like chickens, I suppose.

To bring this back to the original topic, I think that the most destructive kind of evil is the organized, efficient, ideologically motivated kind. The EOM, for example, or the Sansha, or the Blood Raiders. The other factions...they all rely on others outside of their factions for survival. But those three I named are internally motivated to be threats to the existence of any outside their faction. They set themselves up as superior humans who may judge the fate of others, and, unsurprisingly, find them inferior and unworthy of equal treatment with concordant results.

I am sorry that this post isn't very thoughtful. I'm rather tired at the moment.

[Aria Jenneth]

I suspect that most people's visceral reaction to such things is also taught, not innate.

And yet, based on your deep personal faith, it seems you've been taught quite well-- but you personally have no visceral reaction.

Teaching, I'd surmise, can shape moral reactions, but can't forge them out of whole cloth where they do not already exist. There seemingly needs to be a foundation to build from.

There's been some interesting research on this, recently; I may see if I can find a link to it, later, if I have some time.

Or it could be that it is innate, and I merely trained it out of myself in my continual efforts to divorce my thinking processes from my emotions.

Possible. Morality is intuitive, not rational (which is one reason I despise Western moral philosophy-- it's spent over a century trying to square the circle).

... when a serial killer is sleeping in the guest room, the thief stealing your chickens is...less of a priority.

The reason you frame this analogy this way seems to be because you see the two as separate. I would frame it thus:

You fear the king and his men.

I, at least under this particular king, am more worried about the shadows whispering slow poison into the king's ear-- and into ours. Our society's fear of the Orwellian tyranny is a misdirection: it's Aldous Huxley whose "Brave New World" is rising. We've manned the ramparts along the wrong border.

I was going to include a section on playing "the shadow behind the throne," here, but that's really a position more than a "school" of villainy (however much of a classic trope the "evil vizier" is). If you've got the ability to generally give solid advice, I recommend aiming for such an advisory position highly, especially if your time online is limited.

You can get so much done from such a position, either benevolent or malign.

[Saede Riordan]

To bring this back to the original topic, I think that the most destructive kind of evil is the organized, efficient, ideologically motivated kind. The EOM, for example, or the Sansha, or the Blood Raiders. The other factions...they all rely on others outside of their factions for survival. But those three I named are internally motivated to be threats to the existence of any outside their faction. They set themselves up as superior humans who may judge the fate of others, and, unsurprisingly, find them inferior and unworthy of equal treatment with concordant results.

I am sorry that this post isn't very thoughtful. I'm rather tired at the moment.

You seem to have left the Amarrians out of that bloc, when imo, they also fit into it. Its also interesting that all these groups who are so convinced they're right spun out of organized religion. It makes sense though, of all the people who are convinced they are right, none are more convinced that they're more right then institutional religions.

on an unrelated note: Aria, I could probably listen to you debate for hours. You're so damn interesting to listen to.

[Vieve]

You can get so much done from such a position, either benevolent or malign.

And there's something to be said about having nice juicy meatshields.

[Aria Jenneth]

Nikita:

Aw. ... ... Well, thank you. Not sure what else to say to that.


Vieve:

And there's something to be said about having nice juicy meatshields.

Indeed! Among them the REAL kings with REAL thrones who hold the REAL power and therefore take the REAL blame when everything goes straight to hell-- even if it's really your fault.

... so long as you manage to be subtle about it, anyway.

"But it was the King's decision to make!"

True: he had every right to make whatever decision he saw fit. I just made sure that he saw fit to do as I suggested.

[Vikarion]

Honestly, I could really (and really want to, to be quite honest) get into two separate discussions about morality and capitalism and so forth. However, I think that I'd best refrain, partially because that's not what this thread is about, and also because its not what this board is for, and I definitely feel the mods fingers drifting towards their "edit post" buttons.

[Casiella]

So maybe instead let's focus on ideas for playing interesting, multi-dimensional characters that drift toward "good" or "evil" in some sense. What those two things mean will obviously vary from player to player, of course, but that doesn't mean we can't find useful methods overall.

You're welcome to start another thread in the appropriate board on morality or capitalism or whatever else (within the site guidelines), though.

[Vikarion]

If nothing else, besides giving Vikarion an additional philosophical means to look at the world, Aria has inspired Vikarion to be a bit (a little bit) more thoughtful in his actions and IGS writings, although he is still a bit of a firebrand and (towards Gallente and Amarr, typically), well, a troll.

Vikarion shares one specific trait with me that comes out quite a bit in his actions - he loves to infuriate idealists and do-gooders. I'm the sort of person who finds it hard to resist eating meat in front of a member of PETA, and Vikarion is worse, because after he does that, he'll shoot you. And then taunt you.

Childish? Yes. Entertaining? Yes. Likely to make the target bear a permanent grudge? Yes. I think grudges can make great RP. Or they can simply make your opponent froth at the mouth like someone scrubbing with an entire tube of wintergreen toothpaste, and that's even better.

But between this and his temper, Aria has, (as a "shadow councilor", I suppose) managed to inject a bit of thoughtfulness into his knee-jerk "this good, that bad" pattern of thought (something he does not share with me, I will note emphatically). As such, he's going to continue (barring unforeseen circumstances) start posting more on IGS, but hopefully with a bit more reason than the typical "nuh-uh", at least over time.

Not completely, though. Flaming people IC is too fun to give up altogether.