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Author Topic: Good guys and bad guys  (Read 9361 times)

hellgremlin

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Re: Good guys and bad guys
« Reply #15 on: 13 Nov 2010, 11:44 »

Istvaan = grimdark Moses?
Maybe. Now all I need is a staff and some plague.
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Vincent Pryce

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Re: Good guys and bad guys
« Reply #16 on: 13 Nov 2010, 11:59 »

Istvaan = grimdark Moses?
Maybe. Now all I need is a staff and some plague.

Don't forget epic beard.
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Matariki Rain

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Re: Good guys and bad guys
« Reply #17 on: 14 Nov 2010, 00:25 »

Istvaan = grimdark Moses?
Maybe. Now all I need is a staff and some plague.

Don't forget epic beard.

Or the food generator, water extractor and broken navigation system.
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Valdezi

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Re: Good guys and bad guys
« Reply #18 on: 15 Nov 2010, 06:07 »

I never play bad guys.

All my characters in RPGs are 'good' and I always make the 'good' moral decisions.

In games like Dragon Age, Fallout etc, my characters are always as righteous as can be.

In our tabletop game group, Evil characters are banned.

When playing WWII shooters, I refuse to play as the Nazis.

So, my EVE characters follow in this trend, for the most part.
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Casiella

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Re: Good guys and bad guys
« Reply #19 on: 15 Nov 2010, 07:33 »

Interesting, Mammal. Mind expounding on why you do so? :)
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Altaen

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Re: Good guys and bad guys
« Reply #20 on: 15 Nov 2010, 09:50 »

Interesting, Mammal. Mind expounding on why you do so? :)

My guess: Evil in RL.  :twisted:
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Saxon Hawke

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Re: Good guys and bad guys
« Reply #21 on: 15 Nov 2010, 11:09 »

When I was in college, a friend of mine convinced me to join a group that played a superhero RPG. You got points to spend to "buy" superpowers, but also to buy mundane skills.

I noticed that superpowers cost a ton of points, but mundane skills were cheap as dirt. So I didn't have any superpowers, other than maxing my attributes to peak human limit. But I could drive/pilot just about everything, knew every type of martial arts and was a weapon expert in just about every kind of thing that can hurt people.

The one rule the game master had was everyone had to take the restriction "code against killing." I noted this on my character sheet, took the 10 bonus points it offered and used it to buy my characters equipment: a suit of high-tech body armor and a futuristic assault rifle with night vision scope, silencer and muzzle flash suppressor.

A few minutes into my first session with the group and we are all set to assault the fortress of some arch-villain. One of the characters flies over the wall, another phases through the wall, the third turns invisible and slips past the gate guards. Me? I creep into position and shoot the legs out from under the guards.

Horrified, the other three players turned to the GM with a look of panic on their faces. Apparently, the group had always interpreted the "code against killing" as meaning you had to treat non-super-powered villains with kid gloves. The GM looked at me from behind his screen as he considered what to do.

I, realizing the situation I had created, was quick to point out that the guards' wounds were not life threatening. To quote the Terminator, I noted "They'll live."

Needless to say, my character was not a member of that superteam for very long.

As for Eve, I see Saxon as a champion of the Intaki people. When I consider his actions or ILF policy, the decisions I make for him are those that I feel are in the best interest of the Intaki. He has been accused of wanting power and prestige etc., and disparagingly vilified by some, but that is not his intention at all.

Would he call himself a hero? No, that's not his style. But he certainly would not see himself as a villain.
« Last Edit: 15 Nov 2010, 13:51 by Saxon Hawke »
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Akrasjel Lanate

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Re: Good guys and bad guys
« Reply #22 on: 15 Nov 2010, 11:38 »

Hahaha... Nice one Saxon.  :lol:

My character isn't good or evil, he is a human like we all and does whatever is needed for him to survive in such harsh world.
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Esna Pitoojee

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Re: Good guys and bad guys
« Reply #23 on: 15 Nov 2010, 14:05 »

I had a stupidly huge grin over my face when I finished reading that story, Saxon. And I'm not entirely sure why.


It does highlight the fact that "good" and "evil" are highly, highly subjective, though. Highly.
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I like the implications of Gallentians being punched in the face by walking up to a Minmatar as they so freely use another person's culture as a fad.

Valdezi

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Re: Good guys and bad guys
« Reply #24 on: 15 Nov 2010, 15:23 »

Interesting, Mammal. Mind expounding on why you do so? :)

I guess I just feel bad when I play bad guys.

As for tabletop, we made a decision that evil characters imbalance the rp and take away from party dynamic.
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John Revenent

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Re: Good guys and bad guys
« Reply #25 on: 15 Nov 2010, 15:41 »

I try to depict John as a "good" person in the eye of the public, but in truth being in power of anything can corrupt even the purest people. I have slipped a few times, destroying competitors through "dirty" business tactics, and have even gone to lengths of dipping into illicit activities to make lives of others harder in the end I justify it for the good of Ishukone and my pilots.. It is EvE after all. I find that in eve there is alot of Grey area, which I tend to exploit at first chance as long as its honorable in the eyes of others (If they find out), it keeps me on the edge I guess.. and even I get kicks out of being a big bad Corporate CEO at times but I know my bounds.

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Aria Jenneth

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Re: Good guys and bad guys
« Reply #26 on: 15 Nov 2010, 16:12 »

There was a time when I thought playing "evil" characters was kinda morally suspect. That was mostly back in high school. These days, I tend to wonder more about those who flat-out won't do it.

Playing an evil character is an opportunity to learn a little more about yourself and your own actual limits-- and a way to learn how you, personally, go about rocking your conscience to sleep. That's a helpful thing to know.

A couple of odd traits of my own conscience:

1. if I can intellectually form a philosophy to justify a course of action, I can use the resulting reasoning to bypass most moral concerns-- unless things get personal. Because I can do this in real life, I know to watch for it.

2. sneaky badassery appeals. If something involves using stealth and cunning (physical, as in burglary, more than social, as in confidence games) to gain a particular end, it's sufficiently up my alley that the "right and wrong" of it kinda goes out the window. Shhh! Don't talk to me about morals; I'm too busy being clever!

3. righteous anger is a whole continuum of moral justifications unto itself. Big surprise, right? If I feel wronged by someone, I can justify all manner of vengeance in my mind. Interesting note: this does not, in my case, extend to "using" third parties; for me, the revenge impulse is always strictly personal. Harming innocents to get to my target is never "okay" for me, even in a fictional context. On the other hand, shooting an arrogant, insulting son-of-a-bitch in the head at point-blank range just for being an arrogant, insulting son-of-a-bitch is much, much too easy. Again, something to watch for.

Now, it's not as though I'm actually going to pull out a silenced pistol and pop a round in the skull of the next person who's an asshole to me, but the fact that I can justify high-handed retaliation without my conscience screaming "NO!" at just that moment is a warning signal; my instincts are not wholly trustworthy in this area. Knowing that this is the case is important: it makes it much easier for me to avoid being a vindictive, self-righteous bastard in real life.

This brings me to the reason I worry a little about people who won't take their dark side out for a walk: I know my "real" borders, and I know how I go about disarming my moral qualms, so I can keep an introspective eye on myself and hopefully catch myself when I start walking down one of those paths.

So the worry is, how do those who can't bring themselves to face their own darker impulses know what to look for?

GWB, once, when confronted about the U.S. using methods of interrogation we've historically prosecuted people as war criminals for using (e.g., waterboarding), got a kind of stunned look on his face and said, "The United States doesn't torture people." I seem to recall he said it two or three times in a row: "The United States doesn't torture people."

Torture = a bad thing. The U.S. gov't under Bush = good people. Good people don't do bad things. Ergo, the U.S. doesn't torture people. We don't, even if we're doing things that we have ourselves historically treated as torture. We're good, so it's impossible for us to be doing wrong. That's the logic here. Unsettling, no?

Compare this to the woman we'll call Lilly I used to game with who absolutely refused to play or run anything even a little on the dark side. Lilly sat in on one of my darker games, which centered on the characters' internal conflicts between duty, loyalty, and belief in serving the greater good and the demands of serving on a black ops team beneath a dangerous and possibly corrupt superior. In this particular session, a few of the PC's came in contact with an otherwise minor criminal who posed a genuine threat to their boss.

They were ordered to take said NPC out and execute her. They complied.

Lilly was absolutely appalled-- not at the morality of the characters, but at the players for playing characters who would do such a thing (however bad they might feel about it) and at me for running a game involving such characters and such decisions. She just couldn't see how this was in any way even comprehensible.

Lilly and her husband are themselves very much the sort to believe the absolute worst possible of a housemate who might or might not owe them a couple hundred bucks. They won't hear a single word in her defense. Not one. They're right. She's wrong. That's all there is to it. And because they can't conceive of themselves doing anything wrong, they won't entertain the possibility that they just might have self-justified their way into doing someone an injustice.

So, yes, I do worry a little.
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Casiella

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Re: Good guys and bad guys
« Reply #27 on: 15 Nov 2010, 16:38 »

So I vacillate on this question myself. IRL, I'm a highly conscientious person who, while confronted with the internal temptation to act in a ruthlessly Machiavellian manner, stuffs that down and tries to live up to the Golden Rule / categorical imperative / etc. (I recognize those two are not identical. Let's not get caught up on tangents.)

In other words, I try to follow the advice of Francis of Assisi: "Preach the Gospel at all times. If necessary, use words."

But, as I mentioned, I recognize that I'm an imperfect person. RP provides me with a similar opportunity to explore my own limits. I can ask myself, "what would I do if I removed the RL consequences?" While I do not identify fully with my characters, I find more than a little of myself in all of them.

This has led me, on many occasions, to consider dumping every RP character I have and starting fresh with as "good" of a character as I can play. So far, I haven't done that, but it's an idea I keep in my back pocket for the next time EVE grows stale for me.
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Valdezi

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Re: Good guys and bad guys
« Reply #28 on: 15 Nov 2010, 17:23 »

I don't have a dark side. I'm morally sound.  ;)
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Vikarion

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Re: Good guys and bad guys
« Reply #29 on: 15 Nov 2010, 21:22 »

It's difficult for me to posit a moral system for my characters because my personal morality is entirely religion-based, and I rather dislike the idea of trying to import some sort of Christian ethic into Eve. It's the sort of thing that seems to invite both mockery and an electrifying end, and both well-deserved. Therefore, my character's morality is something I largely muddle through, based upon the fact that I can assign predetermined, unreasoned beliefs to my character. Having him defend them is a different matter.

By "religion-based", I should note, I merely mean that I don't have some internal compass that directs me to any great extent, if it does so to any extent at all. Rather, my actions flow out of an intellectual assent that the dictates of a particular set of beliefs are likely to lead to a happy and productive period of existence, in this life and hopefully the next. That I cannot always see how this makes me happy is a matter of faith.

If one's dark side is revealed by the characters one plays, I have a dark side indeed. Vikarion, for all of his flaws, is not an indulgence of my dark side, but a character seeking to do good, and finding unintended consequences as the result of his arrogant idealism. It's a conservative - in the sense of the folly of disregarding tradition in favor of idealism - tale, with a semi-redemptive return to grace...

...In any case, I once played a D&D game with a friend of mine as the DM/GM where my character encountered an evil army of Bane being attacked by a less-advanced but undoubtedly in the right rebel band. Over the course of the encounter, my character:

1. Attacked the rebel band, and was captured by them.
2. Convinced the rebel wizardess in charge of the rebels that he was not a bad guy and would double-cross the evil army on whose behest he attacked.
3. Went back to the evil army, double-crossed the Baneite in charge and threw him into the dungeon.
4. Double-crossed the rebel wizardess by informing the evil army that she was to attack.
5. Wiped out the rebels, chased down the rescuing party, and captured them.
6. Informed the now-captured wizardess that she could either burn the aforementioned Baneite commander of the evil army alive and follow me, or I'd set all of her men alight.

While I tend to find P&P games boring these days (warning - I say this as a person who believes the height of non-computer-related entertainment is listening to audiobooks on economics), I did find the flexibility of role-playing systems interesting and useful. Nonetheless, I don't believe that role-playing games are useful barometers of my dark side, or light side, for that matter. I've played heroic characters and evil characters and even some passably neutral characters, and none of them have excited my better angels or inner demons to any particular extent.

The greatest and most pervasive human flaw is pride, and I doubt we possess the inner perspective or the humility to accurately describe our own faults, much less self-analyze those self-shadow-reflections which we create for fun. If humans were self-correcting in thought or action, we wouldn't need the million moral guidelines that have been created for us or by us through the centuries. And I am extraordinarily skeptical of the exceptionally ridiculous assumption that we have somehow in the last half-century apprehended a moral clarity that has eluded similar humans for many thousands or years. We may be wise apes, but we are foolish men.
« Last Edit: 15 Nov 2010, 21:24 by Vikarion »
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