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[Seriphyn]

I said to myself it would be cool if they brought back in head of state characters, so like, if Jacus Roden suddenly appeared with his purple writing, I'd have to have Seri all like "/me salutes, "Sir!"" or something.

And then that got me thinking about who is considered a civilian and who is not in the world of New Eden, given the distinct politics of the four empires...the President is the commander-in-chief of the Gallente's armed forces, so he or she gets saluted. It's quite simple in the Federation...anyone who is not a member of the Federation Navy, Army, Marines and maybe Customs (depends if it's like the US Coast Guard) is counted as a civilian, with the exception of the President.

Does the State make the distinction between civilian and military? The Caldari epic arc has you go up against a FedNav detention center in Black Rise, where they have prisoner blocks for all eight megacorporations and the Caldari Navy...either a) it's referring to the megacorporate security forces (even then it's a question if they are military or paramilitary civilian), b) State doesn't count 'civilians' or c) Federation are detaining civilians and being very naughty boys.

It gets more interesting...the Republic? Who is the commander-in-chief of the Republic Fleet, if such a concept is universal? Was it Shakor? In a parliamentary system, the head of parliament is not counted as the commander of the military, but that's filled by the head of state...or, well, I guess he counts as the head of state? Maybe it could even be the tribal leaders, who all have a share in the RF? Each tribe has a military force too I believe...though they are likely paramilitary/civilian.

Then the Empire. Are the nobles, ie. Holders, counted as military? The House stuff? It's more medieval in structure than modern so...I think they would count as full-on military, in fact, as the Federation Navy's smashing of the Kador fleet was not like "omg warcriems".

So  

[Syylara/Yaansu]

I've no authority to presume and while I've dug around a bit to find some answers for my own characters, am certainly no lore-hound, but here goes my take:

I see the State as best being described as a confederacy.  That is to say, the power comes from the member-states and only upon mutual consent of the members does it ever centralize (even then, it can be revoked again).  The classic central bodies, the CEP, CBT, HoR, etc really seem about as minimalist as possible.  Foreign affairs, inter-member dispute and commerce resolution, and a central records body.  The CPD/Executor system is a new development and (though I might be reading into it) a great expression of runaway public sentiment meeting with the way corporations tend to package and sell whatever the people are asking for without consideration for consequences (i.e. probably a few of them were falling over themselves to be *seen* as the first ones trending along with the public's perception of Heth).

The recent seizure of the scientist in the State also seems to lend to the idea that a central body coming along and grabbing a corporation's employee is an affront, something they aren't used to at all.  I've formed a perception of the State that says that employment is the basis of citizenship identity.  Where...

...crime is viewed from the perspective of its impact on corporate efficiency.  Or rather, perhaps, where its impact on corporate efficiency is precisely what people see as socially unacceptable about it.

...where Tommy grows up dreaming of being a famous production engineer or research scientist making new products.

...his sister Betty grows up dreaming of being a big-time sales and marketing executive closing the biggest accounts.

...their parents do their best to help them get there, as their jobs aren't even in the direct profit-stream fields (entertainment, retail goods, necessities, social services, etc).

While I see it as most certainly corporo-facist/ultra-capitalist from the outside looking in (and excused through the cleverly planned social folkway of meritocracy), where clearly there's a tiny fraction benefiting in clear contrast to the majority, within a given corporation it is probably made to appear very socialist (think about the basic sense of the word "corporate").  It would be woven into the community fabric to think of your actions on the basis of how it helps the corporation make money and thus raise the global (or corporate) standard of living for everyone (think about all of that "go team!" stuff at work that you probably find cheesy....this society thrives on it).  Brand identities would be worn like badges of honor (The people who designed the electronics subsystems for the Blackbird are celebrities, etc).

Ok, so...military, yeah.  Separate prison blocks makes complete sense from my perspective, again, because of the aversion to central power (well, central power that isn't already controlled exclusively by the beholder).  We know that in securing Caldari Prime, they had to canvass a fleet together out of the member-states.  I imagine any offensive is treated in similar fashion, with corporations effectively "bidding" how much they want to gamble.  Put in too little and it turns out a success, you get little credit...put in too much to a bad loss, you're hurting.  It then becomes a typical business "cost-benefit analysis" type decision.  The CPD commands a great deal of public support at the moment, so the ability to drum up fleets is a matter of corporations trying to stay relevant rather than trying to lead.  I think under the prior status-quo, however, aside from unquestioned defensive responses to outside threats, I doubt you'd normally get the corporations to throw money, ships, public sentiment, and personnel (who could be designing, building, or selling products to make money) at nationalistic goals.  There was a comment in another thread that I find myself agreeing with that said that the Caldari Navy's small total size and the layout of their territory suggests a typically defensive orientation and the current posture is out of the norm.

As for Amarr, most definitely feudal.  This would certainly explain their having the largest (and oldest) fleets.  A title means responsibility to respond to the person you swore fealty to and received your position from when summoned and to bring forces with you.  After thousands of years to subdivide and delegate, there's a mass of lesser nobles with forces to bring up.  However, since these agreements are often ambiguous, the quality of the forces is sometimes in question.

[Louella Dougans]

There is mention in one of the chronicles, about the Imperial Navy. "Kiss of the Soul"

http://www.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=03-apr-01

“This will not do.” The emperor said, his voice still strong despite his frail body. “I will not permit any military forces in space to be built or operated by anyone but the imperial navy. Allowing provincial governors to establish their own armed forces sets a very dangerous precedence that can only lead to future troubles.”

“The governors can have their ground forces, but I will not let them into space. The Amarr Navy will deal with this matter in due time. Need I remind you that the good of the whole empire comes before the individual lives of its inhabitants? Maybe I should make an example of one of you to refresh your memory.”

That was Emperor Heideran in YC105.


The House Navies, may be a loophole, or may be something else, depending on how strong the Imperial Law is, or the definition of military ships.
Police ships are not Navy ships, for example. Policemen aren't soldiers. Neither are security guards.

Could be Armed Merchant ships, heh. Just like how merchantmen carried guns because of pirates, in the age of sail. Just streeeeeeeetching the definition of "Armed Merchant Ship" a bit.
"This ship is a merchant ship, look it has a cargo hold"
"So I see. I also see it has 8 Tachyon lasers."
"Because of pirates. What is your point?"

Though, Uriam Kador's fleet contained dreadnoughts which would be a bit much. Illicit construction? who knows.
I think the only npc Amarrian dreadnoughts and carriers you'll see in missions are Imperial Navy (or deserters).

Amarr is, as always, complicated.


I think, the Imperial Fleet, would be raised and supported by Imperial taxation. Local forces would belong to the relevant House. When conducting operations, it would be the Navy commanding, with House forces acting as auxiliaries.

I would expect something like Navy battleship squadrons, with support from some cruiser and frigate formations, but possibly less cruisers and frigates than you might expect, with House cruiser and frigate formations to bulk up the forces.

So where the Gallente might deploy 1 battleship group, 2 cruiser, 4 frigates, the Imperial Navy would deploy 1 battleship group, 1 cruiser, 2 frigates and demand at least 1 House cruiser and 2 House frigate groups to support them.

[orange]

Caldari Stuff

On the Caldari side of things, even the CN is a corporate entity.  All corporations have hierarchies and within those hierarchies there are expectations.  It is unlikely that a LDPS "grunt" is going to show disrespect to a Watch officer, but the Watch officer has no authority over the LDPS grunt.

[Benjamin Shepherd]

Seriphyn, this isn't Starship Troopers.

Military troops are soldiers, and they refer to non-soldiers as civilians. But they aren't a "citizen". The Federation is not a combat-focused empire, it just happens to have a nice military.

Everyone is a citizen.

[Casiella]

Benjamin, a "civilian" and a "citizen" are not the same thing.

[Benjamin Shepherd]

Benjamin, a "civilian" and a "citizen" are not the same thing.

Citizens are members of a sovereign state. Civilians are non-military people.

What Seriphyn is saying, it seems to me, is that citizens are those that serve their country, a la Starship Troopers fascism. This is entirely false; show me a single chronicle that conveys this belief as fact. Everyone who is in the Federation is a citizen, if they're there legally.

tl;dr - you're a citizen regardless of if you're in the military or not.

[Silver Night]

Do you think any of the empires has compulsory military service? (I mean, you'd kind of expect the Minmatar and maybe the Caldari would, for slightly different reasons.)

[orange]

Vin Diagram!


Civilians are not necessarily Citizens, but they are definitely not Military.  Citizens are not necessarily Military or Civilian (other, like police, firemen, public officials, etc).  Military are not necessarily Citizens, but are not Civilian.

Do you think any of the empires has compulsory military service? (I mean, you'd kind of expect the Minmatar and maybe the Caldari would, for slightly different reasons.)

I do not think any of the empires have compulsory military service.  They are massive entities were obligating service at such a scale is unneeded.  However, each of the empires is made up of components that may have different degrees of compulsory military service.  If the Republic requires the tribes to provide a particular amount of support to the Republic's military then some tribes may answer that through compulsory service.  The State may call on the megas to provide manpower and material for an effort and some of them may make service in the security arm a very useful thing to have in ones career.  There may even be Federal worlds where at 18, every able bodied individual serves 2 years in the local militia, police, fire brigades, or hospitals.

[Silver Night]

Well, that's kind of what I meant. With the Caldari, I would expect it might depend on corp, too. KK might have a requirement that everyone who is able spend a couple years with their military arm.

I think I would disagree that it is beyond the realm of possibility that an entity like the Republic would have a compulsory requirement. It may be a relic of more tumultuous times, but I don't think it is entirely unlikely to exist - even in a direct form (rather than via tribes). It wasn't so long the Republic was fighting for its existence, and I think it's still the mentality in a lot of quarters.

[Syylara/Yaansu]

Benjamin, a "civilian" and a "citizen" are not the same thing.

Citizens are members of a sovereign state. Civilians are non-military people.

What Seriphyn is saying, it seems to me, is that citizens are those that serve their country, a la Starship Troopers fascism. This is entirely false; show me a single chronicle that conveys this belief as fact. Everyone who is in the Federation is a citizen, if they're there legally.

tl;dr - you're a citizen regardless of if you're in the military or not.

I'm confused.  I didn't read Seriphyn as suggesting anything of the sort for the Federation.

As far as thoughts on which ones might, I'd say there are likely a few houses in Amarr, a few tribes in the Republic, and a few corporations in the State that may indeed have compulsory military service requirements.  This allows for people to put it in their back-stories (being drafted or perhaps fleeing beforehand) if they wish as long as we don't try to enforce any consistency upon which is which (even then, you can fall back on different rules depending on the system or planetary government).

I think Minmatar makes the easiest fit, it could easily be seen as a modern "rite of passage" into adulthood and prove one worthy of participating in the discussion of public policy.  In Amarr, some ultra-conservative households may have a serfdom from which they can draft up conscripts with the promise of "enlightenment through service" etc, etc.  The State I find the toughest fit (aside from the Federation, obviously), as capitalism doesn't blend well with picking people's occupations for them.  However, I can easily see a situation where military service is seen as a lucrative path to landing a job consulting with some industrial contractor come retirement or other paths resulting from cozy connections between the top brass and the military-industrial complex.

[Julianus Soter]

Seriphyn's RP and OOC statements lead to that implication. Because of Soter's non-military undergraduate education for instance, he 'doesn't know' why Seriphyn is doing what he's doing. IE, you need a military perspective to do anything of any significance, while the little peon engineers/businessmen/people don't matter in the larger scheme of things.

[Seriphyn]

Wait, what?

I didn't mention anything about "citizens" or Starship Troopers. I'm talking about who is classified as a COMBATANT (military) and who is a NON-COMBATANT (civilian) according to the four major empires.

Also, previous post, this has nothing to do with ongoing RP on the IGS.

 

[Benjamin Shepherd]

i failed sorry pepopel.

Also, isn't it quite obvious who isn't a non-combatant? Capsuleers are all combat-ready, as are soldiers, both egger and non-eggers. Some capsuleers aren't citizens, in fact I don't think capsuleers are technically citizens of anything, aside from relation and association.

[Elsebeth Rhiannon]

So, if I was born a citizen of the Republic, do you think I lose citizenship when becoming a capsuleer, then?