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[Casiella]

Perceived as. The reality, is very different to what you've just listed.

Really? URL to empire faction based roleplay killboard please. 

Like this? I'd link Electus Matari, but they still have their KB private, probably for opsec reasons.

The point remains: perception is indistinguishable from reality. Just like IRL, there's some disdain on the part of those who consider themselves "independent free spirits" for those who support existing power structures. This manifests itself in all sorts of ways, but one of them is "pirate faction RPers" (and, I'd suggest, EVE pirates overall) for generic highsec inhabitants.

[Seriphyn]

Seri I think part of the issue is that a lot of Empire RPers are basically carebears. Running missions and trade routes and such. Yes, I know, not all obviously. But enough of a percentile to create a sort of impression of weakness among members of the highsec community.

Hm, yes, this is a good perception that, even though it may not be 100% true, still plays a big part I think. Good nailing that one :3

[Silver Night]

I'm not, in general, a proponent of the idea that in-space prowess has a great deal to do with validity of RP.

I think the exception is when you are talking about RPing that you have in-space prowess. I think that holds for pirates and Empire faction RPers both. It doesn't mean that there is anything wrong with IC trying to create the impression that you are a skilled combat pilot. If you do try to create that perception, and reality (in space) is substantially different, I don't think there is anything wrong with people calling you on it IC. Of course, there is no reason that you can't just call them liars, and then it's a matter of who is better at spinning the situation.

I don't see any compelling reason that the entire dynamic can't or shouldn't be played out IC.

[Aodha Khan]

Like this? I'd link Electus Matari, but they still have their KB private, probably for opsec reasons.

I do not consider Militia to be representative of the roleplay community. In Minmatar FW for example I don't know one active roleplay corp. Amarr have two with around 10 pilots which actively take part in combat on a regular basis. Even if those pilots are actual roleplayers and not in FW for combat only then that's a very small portion of the roleplay community.

Electus Matari kb would be interesting to see, yes....

The point remains however, the roleplay community based around Empire factions is mostly carebear types which gives the general perception of that community.

[Graanvlokkie]

Seri I think part of the issue is that a lot of Empire RPers are basically carebears. Running missions and trade routes and such. Yes, I know, not all obviously. But enough of a percentile to create a sort of impression of weakness among members of the highsec community.

Perceived as. The reality, is very different to what you've just listed.

Honestly, this thread has lost me, but ill respond without rereading the whole thing.

I dont think there is consensus here as to what is "pirate RP". I roleplay a Sansha, but wouldnt put myself down as a pirate RPer, because I dont fly around violencing random boats. Most people who do regard themself as pirates do just this. A major part of thier RP involves violencing boats.

I have major respect for someone who RPs a baddass pirate who vilences boats, because he goes out and vilences boats and has the kill mails to prove it. I roleplay part of a "pirate faction" but am no good at vilencing random boats, so my RP reflects that. I dont expect people to fear me IC because really, if they dont, what am I going to do about it?

i would regard myself as an "Empire RPer". I may not live in empire, or be loyal to any HS empire, but I am not a pirate.

EDIT: I think this is what makes Veto attractive to RPer's who tried playing other factions. There comes a time when you want you RP to mean something when it comes to in space actions. Yes, you can do wars and make up RP reasons to fight, but lots of other RP doesnt do to well when it comes to providing lots of casual in space pew pew.

[BloodBird]

Really? So piracy would be a 'valid' means to underline your pew pew RP with actual pew pew?

I don't buy that, at all. Pirates that RP pirates are not more legitimate just because they have all the random neutrals of low-sec to kill to underline their badassness.

[Merdaneth]

I think this is what makes Veto attractive to RPer's who tried playing other factions. There comes a time when you want you RP to mean something when it comes to in space actions. Yes, you can do wars and make up RP reasons to fight, but lots of other RP doesnt do to well when it comes to providing lots of casual in space pew pew.

This is a conflict between the nature of the game and the character we play. When I do pen-and-paper RP part of my interest is RP encounters, part of it problem solving, part of it is seeing a storyline evolve, part of it good old dice rolling and interesting tactical scenario's.

In pen-and-paper games the DM/GM takes care of providing a decent mix suited to the players. There is no such thing in EVE and a bit of good old dice-rolling (PvP) is very hard to find in EVE. Problem solving is also very hard to find in EVE. RP with little context is relatively easy to find, but being part of an actual evolving storyline is hard again.

Many pirates aren't pirates in an RP sense, they are simply gamers looking for more space-based dice rolling to go with their RP. Dice rolling which is better provided by creating your own random combat encounters rather than waiting for your fellow RP-ers to provide one.

[Myrhial Arkenath]

I've never ever been ransomed in low-sec during 4 years of play.  I've been attacked countless of times, destroyed many times too, but ransoms? No.

Sometimes killing you is just the quicker and easier way to booty. Ransoms take a few minutes to handle, so if a system is busy that's just putting oneself at risk. It's a shame though killboards standard don't include a way to list ransoms, which is why I am a fan of ransom boards or plugins that do allow for it.

[Sabbott]

Honestly, this thread has lost me, but ill respond without rereading the whole thing.

i would regard myself as an "Empire RPer". I may not live in empire, or be loyal to any HS empire, but I am not a pirate.

This is the exact way I view my character,  I don't view my character as a pirate at all, thats why i made this thread there is a lack of that attitude "We are the good guys" to those who are loyal to pirate factions.  Sabbotts view of Sansha and the current events are they are rescuing people from a life of misery in the empire and brining them to Paradise in the Sansha's nation, this is not kidnapping or attacks but rescue missions, He views the Sansha nation and its Loyalists with respect.

Same with Sani Sabik and Blood Loyalists, he views Sani Sabik as a faith of peace and understanding. if you viewed the recent Sermon i made on IGS, Sabbott doesnt view himself as a pirate at all, And every aggression, every murder is justified in his mind as compassion or being forced upon him. The Biological attack on Mabnen event in 2005 was to prevent aggressions, in response to incursions in the Bleak Lands by Amarr navy & Capsuleer Loyalists, it was the homeland and Sovereignty at the time of the Blood Covenant. just as Domain is under the Amarr Empire's rule etc. and wasnt any less legitimate in his mind....

edit: Reality is I do pirate people, engage nuetrals in belts and murder people, and ransom people, but its all justified in Sabbotts mind as the right thing to do, be it showing compassion, attempting to enlighten people, or he views them as enemys cause of alignment etc.... he despises most pirates who to him are thugs, brigands and trash, the type who would cut their own family members throat for a few isk, they are uncivilized and vile to him.  he hates most pirate folk

[Graanvlokkie]

After reading the thread again and some answers to my reply I would like  to add the following.

My definition of a pirate is someone who engages in acts of crime, robbery or violence for private ends, outside the jurisdiction or authority of any nation.

This definition would fit almost all low sec PvPers, whether you are a RPer or not. In most low sec PvP situations people fight for private gain. These people, whether they ransom or not, can be called pirates.

This definition wouldnt fit my charater because I kill people not for private gain, but to advance Sansha's Nation. My killing is justified in my mind. I am the good guy. I am killing the bad guys and recuing the uninformed. I am opperating under the jurisdiction of the Nation and in RP terms consider myself accountable to the Nation and her Citizens.

I dont view myself as a badass, because its not necesary. A policeman, fireman or soldier doesnt pride himself on how much of a badass he is, but on how well he does his job and aids "the good guys".

Now when it comes to pirates, as I defined above (yes I am hijacking this thread), these people would pride themselves on kills and how badass they are because they are acting for personal gain, nothing greater. What other measure can be used to show you effectiveness?

Veto, in my mind, has always been pirates. Working for private gain, and to be the baddess asses out there. Sticking it to the man.

Other "pirate" factions I am not to sure about. Sansha's Nation are the good guys, so are the Sani Sabik, in thier own minds. Thsese factions have tangeble goals to achieve and the bass ass factor shouldnt be number one priorety as they view themselves accountable to thier faction, to thier EMPIRE. I RP a member of the Sansha's Nation Empire, and consider myself an empire RPer.

Yes, it may boil down to symantics, but in my mind the lack of consensus of what it a "pirate" detracts from the discussion.

But i do agree that I find it ammusing that almost everyone revels in the crimes they have committed. Graanvlokkie doesnt. He has never committed a single crime. His hands are clean. He acts under instructions and under the authority of the Nation.

Disclaimer: posted from my phone, so the grammer nazi's must be lenient.

 

[Merdaneth]

I don't think 'seeing yourself as a badass' is in any way relevant to the definition of pirate.

I'm like the 'for private gain' part better.

However, for most pirates 'private gain' means the excitiment of beating another, and not the actual isk value. In that sense piracy is more like an illegal sport or a roaming gang members looking for trouble than a career for profit.

Beating another capsuleer, scoring kills, padding the killboard etc. Those are the true motivators behind acts of piracy. A kill is much rarer and more desired commodity than mere isk. If pirates want to earn isk, they usually have better methods available than pirating.

[Altaen]

Like this? I'd link Electus Matari, but they still have their KB private, probably for opsec reasons.

Yup. We (EM) do alot of combat, and yes, the killboard is private, for op sec reasons. I will say that we have a little under 1400 kills in the last 6 months, a little over 600 losses in the same time frame, so not really carebear stats, even if we are far from omgpwnage. Almost all of us live in high-security, Heimatar, Metropolis or Molden Heath.

My opinion on the subject of the actual thread is as follows:
Where the hell are the pirate RPers, and why aren't any of them terrorizing the Republic so that I can hunt them, and perhaps get some witty RP banter in local?????
I assure you it'd be more interesting than what we do get in local, like "lol Electus Fagtari! Any good cyborz lately, RP fag?" "I want to RP, can I wear a french maid costume?" etc.

Meh, I really do enjoy killing them, granted...but I'd like some enemies I can like OOCly, hate ICly, ya know?

[Casiella]

I think something just to your taste may be brewing. 

[Inara Subaka]

Sorry I'm late to the party, and this will be a long-ish post referring to many things already said. I will start out by explaining that I feel that Inara fortunately doesn't fall under the "ZOMG, I'm a badass, look at me and how awesome I am." Pirate that you're discussing, and how she views things.

First and foremost, Inara really hates being called a pirate. She sees the things she does as business she needs to do for the benefit of herself and those she cares about. She avoids killing when she can, as long as it doesn't endanger her crew or the crews of those she flies with (preferring to ransom for the safe passage of the target's ship and crew).

As far as her mind is concerned, the only reason the things she does have labeled her as a "criminal" is because CONCORD is corrupt and refuses to allow the Cartel their official claim as a sovereign empire with a seat like the current "big 4" have. She doesn't see it as her place to make the necessary changes politically, she will support those that do make efforts to do such things but that isn't her "role".

Her entire focus is providing and protecting "her and hers" (the definition of which is an interesting and very long discussion for another place) no matter the cost to those that aren't under her 'umbrella' of people not to feed off of. If you aren't one of those people, she has very little care what happens to you.  She'll still avoid causing death, and if someone is on their deathbed, she's liable to help them unless she has a reason not to help them (in which case, she'll find some reason that helping the person would be detrimental to those she cares about, simply to satisfy her own conscience). However, during business negotiations... she sees that as the most efficient way of providing and protecting, and any attempts to stop it from happening, or resistance during 'business', will result in her assuming you're unwilling to help her provide and protect those she cares about, and will forcefully take what she can from the person she's attempting to negotiate with (via blowing up their ship and taking the loots).

Ask Inara and she'll tell you that she hasn't committed 'murder' since she lived in Rancer (when I was in BL3H, she felt horrible about all the death she caused without a 'purpose' as she saw it). She'll also say that CONCORD has it's priorities <insert preferred idiom of choice in relation to being wrong> when they give a larger security status hit to people who destroy a "disposable body" but barely bat an eye when you kill hundreds of crewmembers (this is something that frustrates me as well, OOC; it makes no sense, tbh).

All in all, Inara doesn't see herself as an evil person, just someone who works outside the current legal system because CONCORD is corrupt and refuses to acknowledge her way of doing business.

I've never ever been ransomed in low-sec during 4 years of play.  I've been attacked countless of times, destroyed many times too, but ransoms? No.

I attempt to ransom whenever possible for a number of reasons. First and foremost is because it's more profitable for me, and most of my ISKies comes from piracy (well over 75% of my income). Secondly, Inara as a character hates death and does what she can to mitigate it (this also explains many of her other 'quirks').

I'm going to hypothesize (this is a guess, because I'm too lazy to look up killboards) that you rarely fly alone, and solo pilots are more likely to get a chance at a ransom (or the last one alive out of a small gang, and/or pods that are pointed after the ship is a wreck). When I run across a gang of potential "clients" I have to mitigate the risk to me and my wingmates before negotiations can take place. With multiple people opposing us, effectively "shutting down" risks long enough to ransom a ship without putting too much risk on ourselves is much more difficult against multiple targets at the same time.

Perhaps most 'pirates' are better classified as outlaws gladiators of some kind.

*scratches head* What?

Having a "pirate attitude" is not exclusive to RPing a pirate faction. The impression I got earlier in my RP career was that pirate RPers are "graduates" of empire RP, "enlightened" from "idealism" and no longer "naive". Empire RPers are, or were, treated IC as those who have "yet to see the light".

It's all a bunch of ponce.

Agreed, 110%. The other factions and the Empires are just as good/evil as each other. I never RPed the Empire side, Inara was always a bit... disillusioned with the status quo of the State (due to her interpretations of the teachings she was given as a child) and when she got into space she realized that there were "better options", as she saw them.

Anyway, point is, you don't have to be a pirate RPer to RP like an evil badass, nor should you be perceived as 'tougher' than empire RPers because you are a criminal.

Also agreed from an OOC perspective, however.. MANY (not all) people that are doing the Pirate RP are doing so because they perceived a flaw in the Empire they served and consider those that still follow the Empires to be "blind fools" or some variant thereof.

I think the point remains however.

There is nothing to suggest a pirate RPer is automatically more badass and dangerous than an empire RPer.

Compare the Sarum Family to Guristas. The Guristas a band of petty thieves, pirates and opportunists. The Sarum Family is an ancient, militaristic house with a history in influencing the largest and most powerful empire in all of new Eden. If you RP the Guristas however, you are to be percieved as 'tougher'.

That may be a perception of some, but it's a perception that will allow the Empire RPers a leg-up if they ever get into a brawl with Pirate RPers that deny the viability of an Empire RP corp in PvP. I can speak from experience that Empire RPers are not to be underestimated when engaging in combat (and I'm not referring to the FW blobs).

Also, take into consideration that in a group like the Guristas (especially in a group like the Guristas) to appear weak is a weakness, so they do what they can to appear 'tougher'.

Let's take the FDU and a random pirate faction. The Federal Defence Union, from kills and numbers, has become the deadliest and most potent capsuleer fighting force within empire space. With this in mind, there is no reason to believe that a pirate faction is automatically superior to the FDU.

Other things must be taken into consideration, basically.

FDU, as in Gallente FW is for the most part, non-RPers. Let's take a RP FDU corp and compare it to a RP Pirate corp. I'm not going to say one is better than the other, but to use the entirety of the Gallente FW is foolish.

My definition of a pirate is someone who engages in acts of crime, robbery or violence for private ends, outside the jurisdiction or authority of any nation.

Then the majority of what I do ingame, should not be defined as piracy. I do things within the 'jurisdiction or authority' of a nation, granted it's one that CONCORD doesn't acknowledge as a sovereign entity, but that doesn't change the fact that the Cartel is sovereign.

This definition wouldnt fit my charater because I kill people not for private gain, but to advance Sansha's Nation. My killing is justified in my mind. I am the good guy. I am killing the bad guys and recuing the uninformed. I am opperating under the jurisdiction of the Nation and in RP terms consider myself accountable to the Nation and her Citizens.

I dont view myself as a badass, because its not necesary. A policeman, fireman or soldier doesnt pride himself on how much of a badass he is, but on how well he does his job and aids "the good guys".

This is pretty much how Inara views it, but with a few minor variations of the details. Which is why she doesn't see herself as a Pirate, and why she doesn't view the Nation pilots as "Pirates" as much as she sees them as "misguided fools following a bat-shit insane leader".

I RP a member of the Sansha's Nation Empire, and consider myself an empire RPer.

*high five* That is all.

[Gottii]

I've kinda been surprised by a lot of this thread. The underlying belief that Pirate RPers were somehow perceived as the end-all be-all of PVP badasses and looked down at Empire-aligned pilots was one that kinda surprised me OOC, and would shock Gottii IC. Gottii has a couple pirate contacts, and I'm friends with more than a few OOC, and Ive never run into that attitude while RPing really. Gottii doesn't look at pirates as the epitome of pvp goodness, he looks at them as his food.  Its what he hunts.  

Its not that I don't respect a lot of them as pilots, its just I never really thought of a pirate, whether Faction RPer or not, as any more or less of a threat than an Amarrian-aligned combat pilot for instance.