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[Andreus Ixiris]

I'd actually love to see an Achuran independence movement, not just because it sounds like a nice idea in general, but because it would, if nothing else, be an absolutely brilliant test of the level of ideological and cognitive dissonance within the Federation and the Caldari State. It is most likely that an Achuran independence movement would be strongly and possibly violently opposed by capsuleers supportive of the State and at least tacitly encouraged by those loyal to the Federation. I consider it likely that opposition to Achuran independence by the State would include a lot of the same arguments and accusations that have regularly been thrown at the ILF by the Federation, and of course disapproved of by the State. Meanwhile, Federal capsuleers would provide ideological support for the cause, in stark contrast to the opposition and disdain they generally afford Intaki seccessionalist movements.

(ie. what's to stop the State from sending the superfleet in and crushing your civilization the moment they suggest 'independence'?)

I would love, more than anything else in the RP world, for the State to try something like this, because:

a. It would make for great roleplay prospects in general
b. It would make for an excellent live event chain
c. It would be interesting to see how the hardcore State supporters try to justify it, given that it would be, from a historical perspective, the highest act of hypocricy the Caldari could commit (Yes, I fully admit I would absolutely love watching them squirm)
d. It would be interesting to see how Federal opposition to the act was structured, given their own history
e. It would be interesting to see how groups only peripherally invovled, such as the Amarr and the Minmatar, interpret it. The Amarr have experience with bombing planets into the stoneage before - notably, Minmatar ones.

Boma, I think this is an absolutely excellent idea and I strongly encouarge you to push ahead with it. I'd take these things in mind:

- Make sure you have a very strong grasp of any and all backstory and PF relevant to the Achur. Knowledge of the PF has served the ILF well in their endeavours, but there have been times when they've missed a fact, misjudged something or haven't done their research and it's shown. In all roleplay endeavours related to a historical concept like a bloodline or a nation, a solid grasp of PF is your greatest weapon, your greatest defence, and your greatest strength.

- Read chronicles. Lots of them, and don't disregard information from chronicles simply because it happens in a context that cannot be directly mentioned IC. While I don't wish to bring up myself or my argument with the ILF too much, I was able to disprove ILF assertions that Intaki Prime is economically stunted by using the Blind Auction chronicle. It is mentioned by the participants in the conversation during that chronicle that Intaki Prime is one of the most prosperous planets in the Federation. Now while, in-universe, the conversation itself is one of EVE's best kept secrets, the state of Intaki Prime's economy would be a matter of public account, easily available. The chronicles contain a lot of  incidental information about everyday life in EVE, even if they depict specific events that no-one else knows about.

- Make sure you've got a very good concept of what your organisation wants and why, what it will and will not do to accomplish this, and how it determines when its goals have been met. Set these parameters and stick to them as close as possible - don't flip-flop on these because being visibly indecisive on the IGS is like diving in a shark tank with a heavy nosebleed.

- Don't go into any seccession movement imagining you're going to make more friends than enemies. One thing I respect about the ILF more than anything is that they have few friends and supporters, a hell of a lot of people who despise them, a not inconsiderable number of people who want them dead and at the very best the majority of both the Federation and the capsuleer community are utterly ambivalent and uninterested in them, yet they persevere anyway. Most Caldari will hate you, quite a few will consider you a traitor and most Achura will declare you're not speaking in the interest of the race as a whole. Likely the best friends you'll have will be Federals more interested in sticking one to the State than genuinely helping the situation on Achur, and the occasional Achur who shares your view.

Make sure you understand that it won't be easy or simple, but if you can pull it off it'll be an excellent source of roleplay opportunities, a wonderful glance into the soul of many capsuleers and may even inspire CCP to give the Achur a little more PF love.

[orange]

So...

I think it is because State/Corporate loyalist are not numerous enough for any segment of them to actually care about a group of Achur nationalist, let alone pursue in-game conflict with them.

Taking LDIS/Lai Dai as an example... Achur nationalist could actually be seen a good thing, a thorn in SuVee's side.  The same could be said of Ishukone.

How the State's individual megacorporations should react to an Achura Independence movement (Saisio):

SuVee and Hyasyoda are the most directly effected by such a movement, since they own most of the stations in the constellation.   Echelon Entertainment has some studios in a neighboring system, so KK takes some potential loss.  Emphasis on SuVee being hit hardest by an Achura/Saisio/Okomon independence movement.

It would be interesting to see how the hardcore State supporters try to justify it, given that it would be, from a historical perspective, the highest act of hypocricy the Caldari could commit (Yes, I fully admit I would absolutely love watching them squirm)

Sorry to disappoint, but the "hardcore State supporters" tend to play KK/Lai Dai/Ishukone supporters. All these megacorporations (and thus their players) are likely more interested in seeing SuVee taken down a peg or three.

So it really becomes a question of just how much does SuVee own on Saisio?

This is an important question because if it is "most of it,"  then the megas other than Hyasyoda likely don't care!

It is a SuVee problem, simply put.  If SuVee muddles it up and looks bad in the press (EE's field team!) all the better for KK, Lai Dai, Wirykomi, CBD, NoH, Ishukone, and Hyasyoda's products.  The key from their perspective will be to firmly place the blame on SuVee and not the CEP or CN.

So, as for a State vs Fed conflict; it only appears when the Fed decides to:

provide ideological support for the cause,

At this point from the non-SuVee perspective it is the Fed putting its nose where it doesn't belong.  It is not only getting involved in the internal affairs of the State, but the internal affairs of one of its megas.  The other megas presumably are not directly involved and will scoff at the Fed getting involved.

[Hamish Grayson]

It is most likely that an Achuran independence movement would be strongly and possibly violently

Lol.  Hardly. 

[Andreus Ixiris]

Sorry, but going by which corporations have stations in the system or constellation doesn't give an accurate depiction of who would be hurt by an Achuran indepdence movement. Given that it's the cornerstone of an entire civilization, all megacorporations are likely to have significant (although of course by no means equal) investment in the planet. Also, the Kassigainen and Brothers of Freedom incidents suggest that any serious hint of political dissent in the Caldari State is handled not just by the local corporate security forces but the Caldari Navi as a whole. A lot of people make the mistake of thinking that the Caldari State is just a series of megacorporations bound together by mutual interest - it's a nation, just like any other, with its own arguably stronger form of patriotism. Going against that patriotism, or allowing others to go against that patriotism, sets a very dangerous precedent

The State wants people to believe in its strong capitalist principles - it wants people to believe that if you're unsatisfied with the service you're given, you renegotiate your terms or you find a better provider, but you don't drop out of the game entirely. If any colony that doesn't like the way the State runs things can just up and leave, that's hazardous to State cohesion. Worse still is sitting back and letting it happen - that sends a message not just to its own people but more important to the world that the Caldari can't keep a lid on their internal disagreements and can't manage their own people. It's something other corporations, despite their distaste for SuVee, couldn't disregard - if they ignore it just because it happens on the planet of a competitor, what's going to happen when one of their worlds gets uppity?

Besides, even if it was only SuVee doing the dirty, which I doubt, it's far more complex than that. . While the Caldari can see very clear lines of differentiation between their constituent corporations, CONCORD and the other factions generally tend just to treat them as collectively "Caldari". If one of their megacorps does something heinous like bomb a planet, most people outside of the State are not going to either understand or care that it was one specific megacorporation rather than the State as a whole, and the State as a whole will suffer. Ishukone in particular has a lot to lose, because a State corporation responding to dissent on a planet it had interests on with a planetary bombardment would send an absolutely horrible message to the Intaki. It's not, in fact, going to send a particularly nice message to any Federal colony under threat from Caldari incursion in the contested zone, and the Federation could use it as clear casus beli for blowing off CONCORD regulations and moving more of their forces into the zone, citing "If they're willing to do this to their own people when they act up, what the hell are they going to do to ours?"

Basically this isn't something that the Caldari State as a whole could possibly ignore, even if precedent suggested that that's how they'd handle the situation, which it does not.

[Hamish Grayson]

Planetary bombardments?  Really? That's more of a Gallentean hobby.

[Silver Night]

[admin]Everyone please keep in mind this is an OOC forum. Practice self-moderation.[/admin]

[Z.Sinraali]

Caldari Navi

Giant blue space cat ecocorporate fascist inveterate gamblers? OH GOD BRAIN SEIZURE.

[orange]

Sorry, but going by which corporations have stations in the system or constellation doesn't give an accurate depiction of who would be hurt by an Achuran indepdence movement.

Based on text from the Caldari COSMOS missions, the State assigns/auctions off development rights for all constellations/systems under its jurisdiction.

Saisio contains 3 stations mainly owned by Sukuuvestaa and 1 by Perkone (Hyasyoda).  20/38 stations in the Okomon constellation are owned by Sukuuvestaa or one of its subsidaries.

Hyasyoda (Perkone) 10/38, CBT 6/38, KK (EE) 2/38

This shows who is invested in the systems and constellation and will be directly impacted by the creation of an indepedent  Achura nation in the surrounding constellation.

Given that it's the cornerstone of an entire civilization, all megacorporations are likely to have significant (although of course by no means equal) investment in the planet.

Saisio's importance as a homeworld is not in question.  What is in question is the willingness of all the megacorporations to invest in a homeworld.

Sukuuvestaa Corporation is headquartered in Saisio.

Since resettling in the Achura home system of Saisio after the evacuation of Caldari Prime, the corporation has become the sentimental favorite of the Achura population for both employment and purchasing decisions. Many of the corporation's high level positions are filled by Achura, and images from Achura culture are often used for corporate products. However, corporate philosophy is still dominated by SuVee traditions that date back to its origins on Caldari Prime, not Achura culture.

Before the Caldari evacuated Caldari Prime, Saisio was probably a Sukuuvestaa outpost, with none of the other megas interested in trying to cut into SuVee's turf while there was plenty of space elsewhere.

The Achura are not a cornerstone of Caldari civilization, this fact is what makes Achura nationalism a reasonable idea.

Also, the Kassigainen and Brothers of Freedom incidents suggest that any serious hint of political dissent in the Caldari State is handled not just by the local corporate security forces but the Caldari Navy as a whole.

Kassigainen Incident (based on Verone's entry):

The violence raged on for a further 24 hours eventually leading to the planet being cut off via orbital blockade by Home Guard forces, the corporate security force of the Kaalakiota Corporation.

This indicates that the State was willing to let KK handle its internal affairs free from involvement from outside agencies until...

On the afternoon of November 7th 108, recently re-elected President of the Gallente Federation Souro Foiritan annouced the Federation's intent to send a Federation Navy aid convoy to Kassigainen IV to assist with what the announcing press release called "a major - and growing - humanitarian crisis."

The release stated that the convoy was meant as "a gesture of goodwill, and a hopeful step towards better relations with our neighbors."

Only a few minutes after the announcement, the Caldari State's Chief Executive Panel released a statement indicating the situation was "under internal review," and strongly urged the Federation to stay out of Kassigainen until proper clearance had been granted. The CEP repeatedly referred to the incident as a "minor revolt by political insurgents," in what many analysts called an effort to downplay the humanitarian crisis angle.

The CEP handled the foreign interaction, while the Home Guard and KK continued to deal with their internal activity with the assistance of various capsuleers.

The Kassigainen Incidents supports the idea that local corporate security forces handle political dissent.  The CEP handles external interference.

Brothers of Freedom:
The Caldari Navy was never used in response to the Brothers of Freedom.  CAIN is not the Caldari Navy.  The Brothers of Freedom were also a spaceborne entity targeting the CEP.

The CEP's security arm is the Caldari Navy.

A lot of people make the mistake of thinking that the Caldari State is just a series of megacorporations bound together by mutual interest - it's a nation, just like any other, with its own arguably stronger form of patriotism. Going against that patriotism, or allowing others to go against that patriotism, sets a very dangerous precedent.

It is not a mistake to think the Caldari State is a confederation of megacorporations.

These megacorporations are bound together by mutual interest and shared history and culture.  Its member corporations however do go to war with each other, both economically and militarily.  A story arc last year involved Lai Dai suffering an EM attack and SuVee suffering "terrorist" attacks in occupied territory.  This arc ended with Lai Dai and SuVee facing sanctions for "anti-competitive measures".

Caldari patriotism is not like western patriotism.  It is corporate patriotism.  Lai Dai's brand of patriotism is different than KK's brand and both are more different from Ishukone's or NoH's brand.  They agree on some basic tenats, but the details of those tenats quickly, quickly diverge.

The State wants people to believe in its strong capitalist principles - it wants people to believe that if you're unsatisfied with the service you're given, you renegotiate your terms or you find a better provider, but you don't drop out of the game entirely.

The State being a confederation of profit-seeking corporations, certainly.  But within the confines of individual corporate properties, ie most of the real estate in the State, the corporation controls who can provide what.

If any colony that doesn't like the way the State runs things can just up and leave, that's hazardous to State cohesion.

The State does not run many colonies/worlds.  Individual member-corporations run colonies/worlds.  The CEP does not administrate much beyond the interactions between member-corporations.

Worse still is sitting back and letting it happen - that sends a message not just to its own people but more important to the world that the Caldari can't keep a lid on their internal disagreements and can't manage their own people. It's something other corporations, despite their distaste for SuVee, couldn't disregard - if they ignore it just because it happens on the planet of a competitor, what's going to happen when one of their worlds gets uppity?

It sends the message that SuVee does not take care of its employees and assets.  It sends the message that you are lucky to work for KK, Ishukone, etc who take care of your needs.  An effective media campaign focused on employees and residents of corporate property by the other megas can help protect them.

Lastly, by staying out of SuVee's business, the other megas are expecting SuVee (and the other megas) to stay out of their business.  So should a Wiyrkomi world get uppity, then Wiyrkomi would expect to handle it on its own, until such a time as it sought outside help (and paid for it).

CONCORD and the other factions generally tend just to treat them as collectively "Caldari". If one of their megacorps does something heinous like bomb a planet, most people outside of the State are not going to either understand or care that it was one specific megacorporation rather than the State as a whole, and the State as a whole will suffer. Ishukone in particular has a lot to lose, because a State corporation responding to dissent on a planet it had interests on with a planetary bombardment would send an absolutely horrible message to the Intaki.

Tibus Heth rose to power on the back of just such a "mistake."

Basically this isn't something that the Caldari State as a whole could possibly ignore, even if precedent suggested that that's how they'd handle the situation, which it does not.

There is every precedence that the other corporations will ignore the problem until the damage is done.

[Svetlana Scarlet]

The Caldari Navy did respond to the BoF, but that was because the BoF had already targeted the CEP and the CN specifically -- once that starts happening, the State drops the hammer.  Planetary riots were handled by corporate police forces though.

I don't see an Achura independence movement getting too far -- the corporation most likely to suffer from such a movement is also the one with the strongest Achura presence, which makes me suspect that SuVee is more likely to strike some sort of deal or simply be "Achurized" -- especially when this keeps the other megacorporations from becoming involved.  If there was a violent movement that threatened to put some rogue state right in the middle of Caldari space, that becomes a national security issue, and SuVee won't be the only one involved then.

Furthermore, unlike the Caldari on Caldari Prime or the Khanid, the Achura aren't really segregated from the rest of the State as an "other" -- they don't have any government to rally around (except maybe SuVee, which again, seems to make a rebellion of any sort unnecessary) and there's no evidence to suggest that the Achura are being oppressed or kept from opportunities by the Deteis and Civire population.  SuVee even goes out of its way to appeal to the Achura and build loyalty to them.  They aren't in the ass-end of space like the Intaki, they aren't indoctrinated to loyalty to a rebellious sovereign like the Khanid, they aren't getting the shaft in the political process like the Caldari were...what, exactly, would the demands of an Achura independence movement be?  To expel all the Deteis and Civire from "their" planets?  That's not an independence movement, that's something considerably different....

[orange]

The Caldari Navy did respond to the BoF,

I stand corrected, but then Svet was involved from the start of the arc, while I was just a grunt.

If there was a violent movement that threatened to put some rogue state right in the middle of Caldari space, that becomes a national security issue, and SuVee won't be the only one involved then.

It first has to arrive at being a rogue state and thus take down/over SuVee in its stronghold.

An Achura state can in theory be reasonably isolated (3 constellation connections) to being a State-Republic & null sec border state. To my mind means it is not in the "middle of the State."  It is not too far from the middle, but it also not too far from the border.  I think it very much depends on the demands on the State as a whole elsewhere, how hard Hyasyoda (and Ishukone) want to fight for Hyasyoda's assets, and how hard the Patriots want to fight for the CFU stations (in low sec).

As Svetlana outlined it, SuVee might be the rogue state at which point the conflict is no longer between the Caldari and the Achura, but the remaining 7 megas and SuVee (who has assets and territory outside of the local Saisio area).  SuVee already has substantial autonomy (as do any of megas).

In the end, I think Svetlana makes an excellent point that an Achura independence movement by its very nature will have to be different than the Intaki independence movement.  The State does not function like the Federation.  What demands can the Achura now that they can not achieve by fostering power within the megacorporation that has responsibility for a significant portion of the constellation (and surrounding) constellation economies.

What is good for SuVee is likely good for the Achura.

[Boma Airaken]

Well, we shall see where it goes, I suppose.

[Bureeiku]

Hey Boma

I'm not sure why the Achuran Independence thing didn't take on a greater momentum back in Celestial Imperative. We may have simply suffered a collective lack of creativity, but I was fairly green at the time I joined and not much help in driving it forward.  I do remember having some very interesting discussions with you on our forums about the concept.  The lack of prime fiction for Achura provides us with a very broad license, which may be part of the difficulty in focusing the group on a specific path.

Not knowing what you are exactly plotting this time around, here are some things you may or may not want to incorporate:
- a strong catalyzing event or motive might help the 'cause', e.g. ILF have cited Federal neglect, bureaucratic mismanagement as reasons against federal membership.  
- the motive should have some kind of economic tie-in to place the issue in Megacorp society
- the smaller group in Achuran society that form the 'separatist' block should have clearly defined differences from the mainstream demographic that doesn't sympathize (i.e. those for whom SuVee is the preferred brand).

- Blake

[Boma Airaken]

Hey Boma

I'm not sure why the Achuran Independence thing didn't take on a greater momentum back in Celestial Imperative. We may have simply suffered a collective lack of creativity, but I was fairly green at the time I joined and not much help in driving it forward.  I do remember having some very interesting discussions with you on our forums about the concept.  The lack of prime fiction for Achura provides us with a very broad license, which may be part of the difficulty in focusing the group on a specific path.

Not knowing what you are exactly plotting this time around, here are some things you may or may not want to incorporate:
- a strong catalyzing event or motive might help the 'cause', e.g. ILF have cited Federal neglect, bureaucratic mismanagement as reasons against federal membership.  
- the motive should have some kind of economic tie-in to place the issue in Megacorp society
- the smaller group in Achuran society that form the 'separatist' block should have clearly defined differences from the mainstream demographic that doesn't sympathize (i.e. those for whom SuVee is the preferred brand).

- Blake
[/quote

Heh, somebody noticed the alliance exists again

All very good points Blake. At this point, I am laying low and going about business as usual. I am desperately hoping we can get a chronicle or some other chunk of PF, as I hate operating on such a broad license in the first place. Not making another move until I know more, but I have been rereading everything from the old Imperative forum dump, some of the good Achur threads on eve-o, and paying plenty of attention to this thread.

I'd hate to put a bunch of effort into it and just have it get ruined due to some PF reveal, which I have a feeling is coming soon.