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[Silas Vitalia]

The 3rd person avatar ship has sailed for Eve, Miz is right. 

2d, painterly artwork with pans and voiceovers like the old intro are much more bang for your buck so to speak esp in this setting.

That being said they -should- hire out 3rd party for some animated Eve movies or miniseries.  People would absolutely pay a few bucks for some great series set in New Eden.   Just look at any high production value anime or similar that integrates space/scifi ships and human characters, there are tons of examples.

4 mini series for the 4 races, you could even do an anthology like the Animatrix with variety of stories within the IP at all levels. Hell just animate a few of the Chronicles

[Teinyhr]

Let's hope they don't. The less dev time wasted on that nonsense, the better. I play internet spaceships. Put the animators and graphical guys on more/new/better models and textures for ships, stations, visual effects and so on.

This argument is about as tired as the "lel hurp durp space barbies" one. I play internet spaceships too. I don't play null sec charades or with capital ships, so, should I then complain about the development time wasted on that from my perspective? Focus on subcapital ships pls. And high and lowsec, only, since less than 20% play outside highsec anyway.

[Mizhara]

Different thing entirely. CQ/Incarna/Animation is very much not part of the gameplay of Eve. Hell, it wasn't even when it existed. The game of Eve Online is internet spaceships. The industry, the bearing, the pewpew, the cooperation and interaction with or against people and so on. Focusing on something that is completely detached from that, adds nothing to that but pointless dev distraction and funding, is very much not equivalent to focusing on either of the secs etc.

As for those statistics, you may have forgotten that this is Eve Online and the norm is having a ton of alts. Pretty much everyone in low and null also has one or more highsec alts for trade, hauling or other purposes while your average highsec bear main will rarely have anywhere near as many. In all likelihood, you'll find that a very significant chunk of your 'highseccers' are actually low/null folk on an alt.

Whether or not an argument is 'old' or not is pretty irrelevant, if you don't have a good counter argument.

[Teinyhr]

As for those statistics, you may have forgotten that this is Eve Online and the norm is having a ton of alts. Pretty much everyone in low and null also has one or more highsec alts for trade, hauling or other purposes while your average highsec bear main will rarely have anywhere near as many. In all likelihood, you'll find that a very significant chunk of your 'highseccers' are actually low/null folk on an alt.

Whether or not an argument is 'old' or not is pretty irrelevant, if you don't have a good counter argument.

As for those statistics, those statistics display specifically where players are active. And according to that, around 75% of the playerbase is mainly active in high-sec, alts or no. Quick dirty maths even assuming one highsec alt for every null/low/wh player (most likely overestimate, plenty of scout, mining, indy etc. alts reside outside high as well) would make about 55% of eve's players genuine high sec dwellers.

As for "good counter argument", how do you make good counter-arguments for what is essentially an opinion, other than throwing in your own opinion? You can't, and that's why I've been debating Jenn aSide and other regular curmudgeons for eons - neither side won't budge on what the other considers waste of dev resources.

[Mizhara]

Opinions are not made equal. The reasoning and thoughts behind them add or remove from their validity.

[Teinyhr]

Opinions are not made equal. The reasoning and thoughts behind them add or remove from their validity.

Only if you're willing to give those reasons validity. I'm not keen on rehashing the same arguments I, and many others have made over the years once again in this thread, but what always happens is that both sides give, in their opinion good reasons and thoughts on their side of the argument, only to have them summarily dismissed as "nonsense" by the other party. If you truly want to see good reasons why EVE could use avatar gameplay, there are several 100+ page threadnaughts in the old forum and some of them are rehashed in the dev blog thread on the new one.

[Silas Vitalia]

This debate might have made more sense during the Incarna snafu time period many years ago, when ccp was staffed-up and cash flush to throw (waste) money at this sort of thing (or fortunately also simultaneously developing a 3rd person vampire mmo they could double up on some development time with).

That ship was set on fire and pushed into a black hole; Eve as currently designed by corporate has more in common with  bejeweled or a mobile game, pumping the $$ out of customers in the most efficient way possible. They don't have a former EA pimp in there monetizing/ running shit for no reason.

Let's be real they don't have the resources staffed currently to even cover new feature heavy releases let one am entire 3rd person branch off. 

Also let's be real 90% of Eve stations are empty or have 5 afk players docked, things would be awfully lonei or just force even more people into a few locations to not have it look like a ghost town.

Believe me I was All-In for Incarna when I saw those first trailers with the station bars and games and map rooms.  That sort of vision does not exist in that dojo anymore.

[Teinyhr]

I don't necessarily disagree, Silas, I just get inordinately annoyed every time I see the "The less dev time wasted on that nonsense, the better. I play internet spaceships." type of lines touted around. Call it an old habit at this point. Especially as we all play internet spaceships, yet the arguments tend to always devolve in to the "you just want WoW in space, go play that" "ugh no, let me explain" merry-go-round.

[Silas Vitalia]

I wanted WIS more than I wanted internet spaceships, hah.  It's always been the worst-realized part of Eve since launch; they made no effort to truly show you that sense of scale and world building in the actual game engine.

I would donate one of my kidneys to erase Star Citizen's rather terrible and boring IP and swap in the Eve IP to use with their amazingly strong game engine and gameplay possibilities.

The frustrating part is that eve's rather unique approach to internet spaceships would have potentially been just as unique with 3rd person avatars.

[Morwen Lagann]

I remember when WIS started really being a discussion point with all the videos and such, and people wondered how it'd affect RP, both in positive and negative ways - because of EVE's reliance on text chat for communication, and the way channels work.

I've been playing Black Desert for 16 months now, and roleplaying there for 14. I've really yet to see any real negatives to having the physical avatars when it comes to RP. It's amazing for helping visualize a space and the people and objects within it. It adds a whole layer of social behavior out of character, too - even when people can chat to each other from across the entire game world, they still come and congregate together in a physical space.

Honestly, I find it hard to consider going back to having text only without that visual aid.

[Teinyhr]

Incarna I assume was meant to use voice communication, seeing as it also introduced voice fonts - i.e. lowering or increasing pitch of the voice basicly (I think those are still there, though I haven't checked in a long time).

[Ché Biko]

Yes, I recall there was talk of being within earshot or not when standing in the same room with others.

[Morwen Lagann]

Voice fonts proved they would be absolutely atrocious and detrimental to RP within about an hour of the server coming up after patch day - and we had voice fonts long, long before Incarna's release. At least a year and a half prior, in fact; I was in Ghost Festival at the time, and Incarna released towards the end of my time in Veto.

We immediately played around with them in corp chat and kind of collectively went "LOL, NOPE" at the results - the complete inability to tweak or customize the fonts in any way, shape or form basically killed the feature for RP use before it had a chance to go anywhere.

[Louella Dougans]

the proliferation of alts means that ultimately, rp pvp has no meaning, because nobody puts anything of any importance at stake, because their isk and ship sources are concealed behind the curtains of altery.

"How is X able to afford all these militia losses ?" ponders someone IC. And there might be IC talk of cutting off the supply of materiel to X. But nothing will come of that IC interaction. Because X is supplied by Y alts, and there's nothing that can be done about that.

The only thing that's ever at stake is "face", which can be lost through awful IGS posting, and/or behaving like a cad at rp events. For which incarna might have been useful.

But it was not to be. Oh well.

[Ché Biko]

because nobody puts anything of any importance at stake
[..]
and/or behaving like a cad at rp events.

Hi! I'm nobody.
Also, can confirm acting like a cat at RP events will hurt your rep at least a little.