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[Utari Onzo]

I felt it better to cut the thread off and move from there given some bits were attacks and some bits had bits quoted to other bits. I’m also on mobile rather the at my PC so rather than locking this thread for hours or days before I can get to pruning it better I decided we can just move on from this point. What you’ve quoted, so long as not moderatable content, is fine but I personally want everyone to take a deep breath and try again with a better frame of mind. It got too heated for a bit there.

[Utari Onzo]

And yes, there were some ad hominen and barbs thrown in there by a few folk that didn’t need to be there.

[Mizhir]

I got a little story of my own: There are no drifter corpses in the game. When you kill a drifter they just leave a wreck behind. So according to the game mechanics there is no ways we can have a drifter in our hands. Yet I and 3 other still got our hands on Apollo Tyrannos and still managed to perform an autopsy and make a report about it. It may be a bold goal but we took great care in making sure that the things we wrote were resonable despite everything was made up of thin air. And in the end it became canon by CCP.

So even if it isn't specificly something that happens ingame it can still be part of a story in the EVE setting. Most of it will be part of personal storylines, some of it will be public as well, and some will become part of the EVE storyline.

[Mizhara]

Do you think any of that would break the gameplay of the game? Lucking out and finding a Drifter corpse might be shady, but it sure as shit doesn't affect the gameplay of others. It's when starting to pretend things that would seriously affect gameplay balance are real that problems come along.

[mod]snip[/mod]

[Utari Onzo]

Fair warning Mizhara, you’re toeing the line again. Your point is fine to air but stop making assertions about other folk and “difficulty” or lack there of to follow your way of thinking. We can all agree to disagree.

[Korsavius]

Here is another example, to add on to Mizhir's, of what "generating RP out of thin air" can achieve if done properly.

Also, Mizzy, you ignore things like the Drifter invasions in newbie systems as being ridiculous and implausible but some small unmarked Sansha facility as not? I think we can all do better than that. This type of mentality is not good to have for the RP community.

So long as such RP is executed properly, and agreed upon by parties directly involved, I see no reason why anyone has any right to say otherwise. Stifling RP for limited game mechanics reasons is no bueno. And speaking as an observer of the whole Manty/Silver thread, it has proven very interesting to look at from afar.

[Evi Polevhia]

Alright after a little bit more thinking on it I believe we agree in principle, Mizhara. There is some ludicrous RP out there that would break or otherwise mutilate gameplay. The thing is where we draw the line.

If someone says tomorrow that they are Triglavian and they wear the suit and they fly a Vedmak and all that good stuff, they are still obviously not Triglavian. I mean at the very least we could look at their employment history. But beyond that yeah it's fairly obvious that there are bounds to this game's RP that as players we are not reasonably able to step over.

But on the other side of that continuum would be RP that also breaks gameplay but I am sure both you and I would agree is perfectly fine. For example in game play, especially after the removal of Captain's Quarters, we are locked in to our pod forever. There is no leaving it. You can put the pod in a ship, but there is absolutely zero way to move the person out of a capsule. Additionally, IC Location channels can't possibly exist. I mean in gameplay those are simply chat channels. That's not a physical beach you're going to. L'Amore in Ballo can't possibly exist because it's just chat channels. But that's fine because we can't leave our capsules anyways. Stuff like that I think you're with me and the overwhelming majority of players in suspending because otherwise RP would be quite different than to how it is today.

So. Where do we draw the line? Where do we draw the line between 'I'm half wolf, half Drifter and my other ship is an Iapetan' and someone emoting sitting at their desk? Before you laugh, know that I'm dead serious here. There has to be some point between those two extremes where we say we're not comfortable with stretching the RP/Gameplay boundary.

Yeah. The stuff with Mantel/Silver/Tress does involve stuff that breaks gameplay. But so does L'Amore. And so as long as, at least I think, the majority of people seem to be ok with it why do you have to attack it as delusion? Just leave them be.

[Mizhara]

Kor's stuff

Mmmh, and them dictating to the entire game world that this is something we can do is something that we have the right to do? So if I proclaim we can do Ridiculous Thing #451: Blatantly Not In Our Power, this is something other characters don't have the right to scoff at? I can do this entirely without criticism? Come the fuck on.

Stifling RP my entire arse, as if there's ever been any kind of rule anywhere that says our characters have to go along with pure fantasy that would quite literally be gamebreaking in terms of player ability. It's far worse for an "RP Community" to just start throwing common even ground out the window. It's a very short distance between this and 'vampire biting' people in Goldshire.

Characters can publicly and loudly disbelieve exactly whatever the hell they want, especially if it goes blatantly against what is demonstrably possible. Especially when they are directly involved by being part of the ruleset that's being thrown out the window. I wholly and entirely expect huge swathes of the characters of New Eden to completely disbelieve Miz's involvement in the Network and even claim Sarz'namarr isn't real or it's somehow propaganda'd into existence or whatever. This is perfectly fine. Miz could have made all that stuff up for all anyone who isn't very close to her would know. It does no harm disbelieving it, and more importantly: The existence of these things does nothing to negate or direct other people's RP. They're solely fluff completely and utterly disconnected from gameplay. (Except that I've actually set up Citadels to be part of the Network, but no one seems to bother with them, heh.)

There has to be some point between those two extremes where we say we're not comfortable with stretching the RP/Gameplay boundary.

Of course, we do venture far outside of gameplay in RP. This isn't something I've ever denied. Where I draw the line though, is where we're rewriting the common rules everyone labor under, within the actual gameplay of Eve Online. I've given examples already, but the short version is that whenever it's something any other capsuleer would be able to interact with or do (set up infrastructure, shoot other people, haul around, whatever) it needs to remain under the same gameplay rules as for everyone else. In this case, I most certainly can't set up listening posts and so on, short of dropping citadels and parking alts in them permanently. If I could, holy fucking shit I so would. Everywhere.

And from there it snowballs. If it's there, can I go shoot it and get me a killmail? No? Oh, it doesn't actually exist. I am thus not only unable to do this thing that is being done, I can't negate it or counteract it. I am in fact utterly incapable of interacting with it, outside of being told in no uncertain terms that yes it's there and it can shoot things and this is a thing we can do.

The solution to this problem is very simple: Set up actual listening posts. Arsehouses and whatever the weenie EC is are cheap as hell and better yet: They are content generators. You can actually do shit in space with these things, as friendlies and enemies both. Silver sure as shit isn't too poor to drop a few for a story's sake.

It's very easy to maintain gameplay integrity, while weaving any story you'd like. There are some limitations that can pop up like Asset Safety ensuring you can't get a single slave out of Napkins' citadels without his say so, but there are workarounds to all those things. Camp the entry gate and blow up his haulers. If necessary, work with him to set up other scenarios where you can do stuff in space.

I guess I'm rambling at this point, but the tl;dr to your question is: When there's established gameplay, it trumps the fiction. This not only avoids the problem of rewriting the rules of New Eden and the game we play, it if anything strengthens roleplay by forcing actual actions to be undertaken and actual interaction can take place. On an even playing field. Where there isn't gameplay relevant to what's being done (self-propelled flight in a low-grav 'roid's shower of purple crystal slivers, cave-diving into the Spirit Caves that have inlaid ores that for all intents and purposes mimic a basic nervous system (some kind of ancient art?), hell do a freakin' Shadowrun with some friends as an old baseliner lover desperately needs your help after getting a subsidiary of KK after them), fuckin' go nuts. Go for it all. It has no impact on anyone else, what they could possibly do and so on.

Both in terms of gameplay and RP, no game comes anywhere close to the levels of freedom we have to create the most amazing interactive stories and arcs. That's why I feel it's so very important to maintain the limitations we do have, because they ensure that there's a structure and ruleset common to us all, protecting each other from wrecking the very world we do our stuff in. When we do, there's jagged edges and cracks in the veneer all over the place, and it lessens the RP tremendously.

[Evi Polevhia]

Nevermind I suppose. Good luck.

[Mizhara]

Was your question not answered enough? Did I miss something?

[Silas Vitalia]

Good stuff, all.

I think for minor consentual RP there's a whole world of 'that sound fine' worldbuilding outside of game mechanics no one bats an eye at.

Where RPers tend to always butt heads is how out of the average some people tend to go with their own things. 


We are often left with the crude metrics of group consent and gameplay metrics to guide us.

One thing I've found that helps a bit with this sort of thing is to in general try to use the in game assets and 'street cred' and other metrics to guide me.  This only applies of course to RP that can be game related. If you want to be a barkeep in a merc bar on some backwater planet, you don't need in-game anything to support this.

If you claim to be an ace solo pilot better than god and have 5% effectiveness on your actual killboard, nope and nope. That sort of thing needs to be supported.

If you claim to be an industrial mover and shaker and you show us your manufacturing que and some of your bank account readouts, we can all get behind that and your gameplay supports your RP.

This goes the same for some folks I've seen over the years trying to be grand space tyrants or heroes mostly forum/chat warring.  You can I guess RP that you abuse your baseliner crew or have tons of worshipfull followers around the cluster but it's always harder to believe that stuff if you come across as none of those things in-game. 

This was my attempted rule 100% for all my time here; my in game fortunes rose and fell with in-game performance.  When I was running some orgs and owning some small corners of null or low space and our own player stations my RP and non-gameplay RP reflected those good fortunes. When it crashes and burns and you get your ass kicked and lose it all, the same rules apply.  I certainly couldn't -prove- some of the things that were claimed for Silas during the "good" or "bad" times but it seemed a reasonable extrapolation for things that were currently reflected -in game-. 

I guess my only advice would be to yea, temper some of your out of gameplay content towards how well you are doing in-game perhaps.   

If you are a carebear running missions in high sec I don't want to hear about your vast network of null sec planetside assets, for example, it doesn't fit.

[Silver Night]

Locking this, particularly as there seem to be snipped parts that didn't make it anywhere, so I don't really have the full context for the thread to take any other mod action, but there's also discussion of moderation etc, and it seems like people have been pushing over the 'you're doing it wrong' line as well. I know we haven't had a ton of activity lately, but pleased as I am that people still log in here occasionally the rules and FAQ continue to apply.