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[Lyn Farel]

Lyn, in terms of tech and economy, the picture is somewhat nuanced in EvE:Source. The Caldari have the most efficient economy, I should have said, but the Federation and the Amarr have larger ones. Tech-wise, the Caldari have better industrial and military tech, while the Gallente have better "consumer" tech.

If you read the old news articles, which is increasingly hard to do, the Gallente were not losing everything. That was the Amarr. In fact, I can only remember two major setbacks for them before TEA, one being the theft of a Titan, and the other when they lost a convoy attempting to infiltrate a Caldari station in Kassigainen...and the second was caused by players. And the Caldari were never winning "everything" - in fact, there were quite a few news articles where they were portrayed rather badly, like the whole Brotherhood of Freedom series of incidents or the "protein delicacies" incident. In the past, Gallente and Caldari portrayals were fairly balanced between some good and some bad. But the portrayal we have now is so imbalanced that any other faction winning anything looks strange after a while, because all we are shown is the aquamarines winning everything.

That's not to say that I think it would be a good idea for the Caldari and Amarr to get their time in the sun and to toss the Gallente out in the cold. I just think that it's a bad idea to have one society that is a utopia, wins all the battles, and whose only real problems are that other societies around it just aren't as great as it is.

Or, to put it in a more humorous way, the writing for the Gallente Federation in, say, EvE:Source, TEA, and other works seemed the literary equivalent of a man staring lovingly into a mirror as he jerks himself off. 

Well yes, the Amarr were a desperate cause back then...

But saying that the gallente is an utopia... I find the faction a lot dirtier and grimier than the caldari one, as depicted as of now (which was much more nuance in the past). And yes, i'm not counting TonyG in the process, just the wiki lore and what I gather of source lore...

I also agree with your statement on tech, economy and military actually. It's just that your OOC note on the IGS was really not that, for a moment I thought source really stated what you said on the IGS...

[Vikarion]

I also agree with your statement on tech, economy and military actually. It's just that your OOC note on the IGS was really not that, for a moment I thought source really stated what you said on the IGS...

Well, Vikarion wasn't lying on the IGS. EvE:Source is a little weird on it. The Amarr, for example, are said to have the largest economy. The Caldari are said to have a strong economy, being the most efficient, the most productive, and strongest in R&D. Then you go over to the Gallente section and their economy is the best at providing consumer goods, tourism, commercial industry, and probably distribution. As for how they are doing right now, the Caldari are apparently experiencing a boom after Heth being deposed, the Gallente are not growing as fast as under Fouritain, with Roden funneling the economy into the military side, and the Republic is prospering. The Caldari are said to have the flat-out strongest military, however, and the best military tech.

To the wider point about the portrayal of the factions, I think that reading only some of the sources of lore will tend to create a different picture than the one you might have if you read them all.

Gwen, while I agree that the EvE:Source Chronicle is going for that, I also think that "our culture has so much opportunity and variety that it's hard to focus on one thing" is, as far as negative points go, pretty meh. It's like saying that grocery stores are bad because they have too many varieties of cereal.

And then you have the unending song of the hippie-hallelujah chorus in praise of the Gallente throughout practically the rest of their section, not including the mentions in other sections. Like how life in the Federation is "described as utopian". Like how personal freedom is guaranteed on all planets, and if you don't like how one is run, you can just move. Like how Gallente art and culture reaches heights so sophisticated that the philistines in the rest of the cluster are incapable of grasping some of it. There's wonderful religious harmony, with churches lined up side by side (I'd love to know how they manage this, BTW) with priests and ministers of different faiths chatting happily after services (seriously, I'm not kidding, page 72).

The big danger for the Gallente? Well, their "shining greatness" could be endangered by the malaise of low voter turn-out. Another quote: "Some believe this is an unavoidable side effect of the Federation's greatness; if everyone is happy, they don't feel the need to speak up and make changes." Oh, and vice, whatever that is. I suppose if one thinks that body modification, or experimentation with non-harmful drugs (The Federation bans harmful ones), or gambling is just horrible, then you have that.

Oh, darn. How terrible.

Of course, then they went and made gambling one of the favorite past-times of the Caldari, so if you're going on vice as a down-side, well, looks like the Federation wins again.

The poor get health care and government aid for their kids, schooling is free (apparently even college) and private schools abound, and anyone can experiment to find the best career and lifestyle. The Gallente are also the strongest cultural force in the cluster, and, oh, I almost forgot, also have the best intelligence agency and personnel in the cluster.

And that's just from EvE:Source.

But you know what? Fine. I think the above is a Mary Sue-ish country, and thus a problem. But let CCP have their little idealized Europe-in-space. The bigger frustration is that CCP won't even let the other nations in the cluster be good at the things that they are supposed to be good at.

The Amarr Empire? Supposed to be a bastion of stability, order, and tradition? How many leaders has it had in the past ten years? Four? And one was a Blood Raider, who was followed by Princess Jamyl The Cheating Nut-Queen. Oh, and whereas the Caldari could only take Caldari Prime with the help of a top Gallente on the inside, the Amarr are apparently just that incompetent when it comes to defending their own territory, from the Minmatar, from the Gallente, or from pretty much anyone else. Or invading anyone else's - thanks, Uriam Kador. One wonders how they've lasted 2 years, much less a millennium or two.

The Republic? Well, the Republic has become the paranoid-schizophrenic step-child of the Federation. When it's not spending long periods of time doing nothing or losing territory to the Angels, it's going full-out psycho and trying to invade the Federation (and getting utterly stomped, of course, because we can't have the Federation losing anything). Hardly seems like the sort of thing that one would expect from a system that's supposed to put the wisest and most careful at the top, but hey, I guess them's the breaks. Honestly, the Republic doesn't even get to do anything cool, because apparently any time someone has the idea for a cool thing, it goes to the Federation.

The State? Well, the State's supposed to be the hard-ass on the block. The State is supposed to be militarily strong, efficient, hard-working, and smart. Sure, not always so concerned with niceties like human rights or personal liberty, but there you go. So obviously the correct thing to do is have them getting the shit beaten out of them every time they go up against anyone, from the Sansha to the Federation. Hell, they couldn't even conduct a surprise invasion without taking massive losses, threatening genocide, and needed both the Broker and the top Gallente Admiral helping them. Oh, and despite their "strong economy", be suffering from worker riots, need giant loans from the Amarr, and have half a dozen news stories every couple years talking about how bad X megacorporation is doing. 

So the big problem is the portrayal, the "show me" of the story, rather than the footnotes to it. We can argue all day about who has the best back-story on EvElopedia. But when it comes to events, to news stories, etc, well, no one gets to be better than the Federation. At anything.

And that's boring.

[Lyn Farel]

The more I hear about Source, the less it makes me want to read it... 

Although I think you are purposefully entirely bypassing everything bad that has been presented not in eve Source, but in the wiki as well as every other lore material on the gallente... Their grim sides are incredibly grim and abject (some rivalizing with the amarrian breeding facilities or Karsoth personal vices), while their façade is indeed the perfect showcase of an utopian world... Which is just eventually the mystifying sugarcoat.

Compared to that, the Caldari are a lot milder, but I can agree that they also lack a lot of those awesome utopian facets. Maybe they are more uniform as a whole. Less grim, but also less utopia...

I kind of agree with your depiction of the Amarr, but again, while they have indeed been a total disaster before TEA, past that they have increasingly started to change because CCP maybe got aware that added to being the obvious evil doers (at first glance !) with all that slavery thing and all, they were also completely and utterly incompetent as you say. And even if they had with the Gallente in the first years of the game, the best leaders of New Eden (Heideran / Aidonis), they started to show a side that I quite like with that actually : they are ironically the most aggressive minded faction, ready to Reclaim, and yet, they are probably the ones that have almost never broken any treaty, play by the rules, prove to be the most diplomatic and patient of all on the intergalactic scene. That's one of the few good sides they have that I like. At least now, they feel a lot less incompetent in the recent years. I mean, aside from their past buffoonery (which has ceased now), they still hold from the lore the best ground troops of the cluster, they were most of the time in advance in technological races , and that not only for the confessor, but for duster tech, etc.

As for the caldari, I don't know... I guess I don't see it that way.


Note : also, on free college, I am not sure that's really an argument, it's (almost) free where I live too... Except if you go for a private school ofc. I mean, it's not that much an incredible thing...

[Nicoletta Mithra]

...aside from their past buffoonery (which has ceased now)...

Well, if you read EVE: Source, I think you will see that that's not at all the case. Source made them more religious nutjobs than they were before.

[Elmund Egivand]

Superb Eve Source criticism

Everybody but Federation are fucking idiots.

Screw faction loyalties.

[Lyn Farel]

...aside from their past buffoonery (which has ceased now)...

Well, if you read EVE: Source, I think you will see that that's not at all the case. Source made them more religious nutjobs than they were before.

nuuu 

Well at least they can't murder any further the Ammatar, right ?

Right... ?