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[Inara Subaka]

This is being created from a discussion on another thread, but it's a very relevant issue to address.

Capsuleers are immortal (effectively), and there is no way to police their moral behaviors in any way (CONCORD doesn't really count, because they fail at preventing "immoral" behavior by Capsuleers).

An Egger has no morality they have to answer to aside from their own personally imposed morality. One could go out murdering millions of people because it's FUN, and others could take a vow of pacifism and never cause the explosion of another ship (NPC or Capsuleer), but neither could impose their moral compass on the other by any means.

When all restrictions are taken away, what happens to a human? No limits... do they stick to their moral code they had before they were immortal, or do they find themselves above such petty things? Without restrictions or social guidelines, do they revert to their baser instincts without reservation?

This applies to all morality issues, not just murder etc.... I'm just using murder as the 'simple' example.

[Silver Night]

I think, as with most things, it'd be mixed. Depend on the capsuleer, etc.

There might be some cultures that are 'better' at instilling morals that would survive, though?

[Inara Subaka]

Oh, definitely agreed. I'm speaking in generalities though, what limits do Capsuleers have in terms of morality aside from their own consciences?

I'll use Inara as an example: When I was in Rancer, she tried to delude herself into thinking she was "just doing business" when, looking back, she sees that as a time in her life that she allowed her own morality to slip (smart-bombing gates isn't business, it's mass murder for profit). But no one could call her on it, or change her, there's no restrictions that could be placed on her (aside from her own choosing) to keep her from doing that again.

But as much as Inara abhors murder (her moral code is interesting to say the least), she can't prevent any other capsuleer from running around blowing ships up willy-nilly. Especially those that do contract work in hisec where she's KOS by authorities... And there's nothing preventing her from going back to that 'way of life'.

And like I said, it's not set in stone that she couldn't go back to being a mass murderer for profit, and again, there'd be no restrictions to prevent her from doing as much. A capsuleer can do anything with little to no lasting consequences... It's just something to ponder on.

Also, this applies to all forms of morality. Violence, business ethics, telling the truth/lying, social 'deviancy', etc are all under this 'umbrella topic'.

[Kaldor Mintat]

Unless the egger in question is operating solo in expect there will always be some behavoural restrictions in the group one belongs to. Also for some/many the sociatal rules imprinted during youth would remain (at least for awhile). we need to remember that even if capsuleers are potentially immortal no capsuleer have been operating for long as of yet and most have in fact already retired.

[Natalcya Katla]

CONCORD law is Katla's standard for moral behavior. She will not break CONCORD law, and although she'll claim the reason for it is that keeping a clean record has its advantages, the truth is that she actually regards the law as a moral imperative. This applies only to the letter of the law, however; she'll exploit loopholes or circumvent laws without a second thought, as long as she doesn't downright break any. She dismisses the notion of "the spirit of the law" and of "justice" as stupid romanticism, and openly insists that laws are there to keep order, not to be fair.

She also has a handful of friends (and favored enemies) who she'll stick up for if needed. Aside from that, despite being much more sociable and outgoing lately than what used to be the case, she is utterly amoral.

[Goshien]

The result of someone not being bound by laws (or even any sort of retribution) is usually different then who they are when they are bound by that. Games, and the internet in general, present us with a sort of view into this. Their is almost no retribution for anything you say on the internet, and look what happens.
Now put that kind of behavior back in real life and you end up with an asswhooping.

Not the same of course, when faced with more immoral actions like theft, murder etc. I wonder how many only follow laws because they would rather not go jail. Certainly I think the majority would indulge in some sort of crime (even if minor) if they knew that there were no consequences. Pilots have basically come into a large amount of power, lose a fear of death, and in general might very well becomed detached from other humans. Given in this state for some time, I think a loss of "accepted morality" would be almost inevitable for many of them. This is shown in the amarr I think best. Some amarr pilots run off doing whatever they like, but they have many that stay. Could be a sense of duty, or I think more a fear of retribution from their diety.

[Silver Night]

I think there is a difference in that (IC, at least) pilots don't have anonymity. They might be essentially free of more traditional restrictions, but reputation is still an issue.

[Kaleigh Doyle]

Firstly, I would argue that CONCORD and the major empires to some degree do play a factor in determining our choices. If you decide to commit aggressive actions against other capsuleers enough CONCORD will eventually prevent you from entering high security systems. If you decide to join a faction in the war, their enemies will hunt you when you enter their systems. Given this I'd say their morality and laws do set come to play in determining our own.  Is the freedom to murder willy nilly a fair price for restricted travel?

Essentially, our 'morality' is defined by our needs and the consequences of our actions. Outside of CONCORD and the major empires, our fellow capsuleers are really the only determinant of acceptable behavior.

Long before salvaging and criminal flagging, jet can theft was a popular trade amongst thieves, and these thieves carry on that tradition with salvage 'theft' at popular mission hubs. People scream and cry foul, while others suck it up and deal with it, but our society has generally regarded the thieves as lowlife scum. The same goes for corp thieves and cheating on duels, to reporting bots and isk spammers.

Ultimately what happens is those who share the same moral principles tend to group together and form societies, and those values continue to persist until a greater civilization comes to swallow them up. The New Eden universe really emulates a darwinist, anarchist existence, encouraging a 'winners get to set the tone of morality' position.

The question I'd ask is, what do pilots need and how do they go about getting it?

[Goshien]

I think there is a difference in that (IC, at least) pilots don't have anonymity. They might be essentially free of more traditional restrictions, but reputation is still an issue.

True reputation, or the social aspect, is likely one of the most limiting things on human behavior their is. Mob mentality shows this. Ask any one person whether they would destroy someone elses property for no reason and of course they say no. Now get them even a little tipsy, start a good old fashioned after the game riot and suddenly that same person is helping flip cars. A new capsuleer might be affected by this, but I think as time wore on they would become less susceptible as they are distanced from the mortals.

[Lillith Blackheart]

This thread makes me ponder making an Amarrian character. I do not believe in morals as a person, there are ethics and there are social mores, "morality" has a direct implication that I find highly improbable, as a result I tend towards making characters that are amoral as well, though often ethical and often socially acceptable behavior.

Interesting.

Sorry, carry on. I should say something on topic:

I would suggest that along the lines of what I said to start this, that barring the Amarrians or Matari (and perhaps the Intaki), morality amongst capsuleers is a non-issue. Specifically with the Caldari. The Caldari, by their society's strict methodology strike me more as an Ethical society than a Moral society. Furthermore I would suggest that the divorcement from death via capsuleers would lead them to move away from Morals even further and towards Ethics as their "right/wrong" compass for direction.

Because there is a big difference between the two terms.

[Vlad Cetes]

As a person, I do somewhat have a moral code.

Vlad as a character, has none. He does whatever it takes, no matter who or what he hurts. This can backfire as it can make enemies.

[lallara zhuul]

Morality is a crutch for people so that they can feel good about making selfish choices.

[Ciarente]

Morality is a crutch for people so that they can feel good about making selfish choices.

Without getting into generalities, certainly as far as Ciarente(c) is concerned, that's quite accurate. Much of her thinking on ethics and her personal religious convictions operate to justify her actions, rather than guide them.

[Esna Pitoojee]

I've been trying to figure out how to phrase this for a few days, and I think I've got it down now.

Esna is a rather religous person. You won't hear about it a lot if your character isn't religious and/or loyalist, because he long ago figured out that throwing the bible at people whose views on religion ranged from neutral to negative isn't a way of making friends. However, his actions often do reflect his religious views, which in turn restrict his actions to ones he can rationalize as somehow helping the Empire or the Amarrian religion.

This can still mean a fairly wide range of actions, from joining a nullsec alliance (rationalized as allowing him to let off his self-admitted lust for battle in an environment where those involved have chosen to fight, as well as giving him a location to operate from where he is out of reach of most freedom fighter/terrorist types) to actually engaging forces loyal to a specific Holder in battle (Holder in question was selling illegally captured slaves. Esna engaged them on the basis that legal issues aside, this Holder was responsible for furthering the "we are coming to steal you, your family, and your family's family" reputation Amarrians have).