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[Publius Valerius]

About: Rebalancing eve, one ship at a time.

First I like this Idea, and Im totally for it. I see just a small Problem: Tautology.


We all still know the fifth class. The first time which we are going on blackboard, to derive a functional and we come after 10 min. to something like x=x. Which is true but gives use not really infos what we searching for. We I write this stuff? I will come to this. After the Fanfest vid on this topic; I had a little fear that maybe something like this would be problem which comes around when a attribute of ship lines equals a ships developer.
I quote: "Carthum ships are the very embodiment of the Amarrian warfare philosophy. Possessing sturdy armor and advanced weapon systems, they provide a nice mix of offense and defense."
It sounds like a the Combat ships line:
I quote: "Designed for direct fights, such vessels are usually found spear heading an attack force, or sniping from long range. Have great damage and defense, but poor mobility."

So where is the Problem?

Comabat ships:
Damage: High
Tank: High
Mobility: Low

Carthum ships:
Damage: High
Tank: High
Mobility: Low

What does it mean? It means that CCP has two options.
- First option would be, add this two attributes to:

Comabat ships:
Damage: High
Tank: High
Mobility: Low
+
Carthum ships:
Damage: High
Tank: High
Mobility: Low
=
Combat-Carthum ships:
Damage: Super-High
Tank: Super-High
Mobility: Super-Low

It would mean that for example a Paladin would most likely be slower than a Freigther

- Second option would be:
CCP ignores this Problem and just gives this ships attribute from the line and forgets the Developer. which means a Paladim would most likely this outlook: Damage: High, Tank: High, Mobility: Low + plus some tweaking. So where is the Problem? The Problem is that, in the second case the "ship line" = "Developer" which brings us back to tautology. So CCP doesnt need a new simple for the lines or even the lines... because they would be already be a attribute visible in the developer or the other way around they doesnt need any developers just the lines.

So my first Idea: Two different sets of lines for Tech 1 and Tech 2. So that the lines which are mention in the blog and vid are the Tech 1-lines. What does that mean? It means a Combat ship cannt a be a Tech 2 ship. With this we doesnt have any tautology-problems.

Just my 50 Cents any other ideas?

[Publius Valerius]

Hi, first of all I like this topic and as an amateur game-theory theorizer I think it is actually intressting.

My Idea would be something like this: First the three tank categorys: Damage, Tank/Protection,  Mobility. This three Categorys get two attributes this two atrributes dont exclude each other:
Damage: Alpha-Damage and Damage per second.
Tank: Hitpoints and Resistance.
Mobility: Speed (final velocity) and Agility (general acceleration, more see down).
And like in the game-theory every decision gives us a Auszahlung/payoff; but first we have to give every decision a name. Name in the meaning like in two player prisoner's dilemma is the nash equilibrium in field 4 or you can say: (player 1 + strategy defektion) + (player 2 + strategy defektion).  So lets start.^^
Damage (x): Alpha-Damage (x1) and Damage per second (x2).
Tank (y): Hitpoints (y1) and Resistance (y2).
Mobility (z): Speed (z1) and Agility (z2).
This attributs can be on or off (¬). And as element of "early balance" you can say, that ever ship should have the equal numbers of on and off attributs. I say "early balance", because the actuall balance should CCP make over the Auszahlung/Payoff of the disicions, like I said the first step is just give decisions a name/field number (or my old prof. Gaul would kill me).

Now to the "ship lines". Let start with a easy one; the Class-Canon line (Publius hits the swtor random name generator: Ahraan-line )
Ahraan-line is: Damage (x): High; Tank (y): Low and Mobility (z): Medium. It mean for us that a class-cannon, a Ahraan-line, has in x (damage) two attributs, in y none and in z one. It mean general, that a Ahraan-line has undiscuss already four attributes x1+x2+¬y1+¬y2. Just Mobility can change their attribute, it means for example that Amarr and Caldari have z1+¬z2 and Gallente and Minmatar have ¬z1+z2. It means that Amarr and Caladri (Oracle and Naga for example) have low topspeed, but are more agile and the Gallente and Minmatar are the opposite, hight topspeed, but less agile (Talos, Tornado).

Combat-line is: Damage (x): Medium; Tank (y): High and Mobility (z): Low.
General: y1+y2+¬z1+¬z2. And again a split between races, but now in damage. So for example Abaddon and Hyperion are than ¬x1+x2; Maelstrom and Rokh are x1+¬x2.


Fast attack-line is: Damage (x): Low; Tank (y): Medium and Mobility (z): High.
General: ¬x1+¬x2+z1+z2 and now split along of Tank. Omen and navy Osprey would be in this case  y1+¬y2; Stabber and Thorax are ¬y1+y2.

Now you will say wait Publius... we have now just some ships and outlines of the deepness of EVE. And you are right. But we need this outlines to go deeper. Deeper to exclusive atrributes, where there is hardly an option for to have both attributs on.... What you  mean you maybe will ask? Something like Long range weapon and Short range weapon. This two attributes of x (damage) of course, but not like the both others where you can image a ship which can both high alpha-Damage + high damage per second (like in word of tank some ussr tanks , and yes I love them). But being able to have both attributs on for one turret is a little immersion breaking (not counting missiles:P ).

Now what can be found for the categorys: Damage, Tank/Protection,  Mobility?

Damage (x): short (x3) vs. long (x4).
Tank (y): Shild (y3) vs. Armor (y4).
Mobility (z): Uniform acceleration (z3) vs. none-Uniform acceleration (low heavy or top heavy) (z4).
About the last pointz see for example Reihenschluss- und Nebenschluss-Elektromotor. I think in english "DC inverse speed motor" and "shunt wound motor".

Just an Idea maybe other have more points and attributs.... and comments and new attributs are welcome.

[Alain Colcer]

Actually you need to look at balancing "holistically"

Ships (in all sizes, racial designs and categories) + guns + modules

Then having this "whole picture" you can start changing one a t time.

[Publius Valerius]

Actually you need to look at balancing "holistically"

Ships (in all sizes, racial designs and categories) + guns + modules

Then having this "whole picture" you can start changing one a t time.

You right... I have just the categorys (Damage, Tank, Mobiltiy).

So it would be first the size and just Tech 1 sub-captals and without the industrials etc....

So first would be size... ehm.... that goes with Signature radius. A smaller signature radius makes a ship harder to hit with turrets due to tracking effects, take less damage from missiles, and take longer to lock. Ehm... I will thing about that, most likely the best would be go with the four steps.

About point two: racial designs.
Im not really sell on this, because every ship has weapons it flys and makes pouff.... it is just the numbers of the given lines which you later give like Minmatar get a n+1 for any fast attack-line by given signature radius.

[Publius Valerius]

To addition to the first and second post I totally forget that all lines in post 2 are just for Tech1.

The Tech two lines would be, other ones, so that the 3 developers of every race could free from overlapping with the lines (see post 1).

So the Tech-2 lines would be this three:

Fast Assault-line is: Damage (x): Medium; Tank (y): Low and Mobility (z): High.
General: ¬y1+¬y2+z1+z2 and now split along of Tank. Zealot and Cerberus would be in this case  x1+¬x2; Vagabond and Deimos are ¬x1+x2.

Assault-line is: Damage (x): Low; Tank (y): High and Mobility (z): Medium.
General: ¬x1+¬x2+y1+y2. And again a split between races, but now in Mobility.

Publius hits readom name generator again. Val-line is: Damage (x): High; Tank (y): Medium and Mobility (z): Low.


So I hope of any comments, like Bruno Bonner ones.... everyting what gives input... or stuff which I miss... so that I can work it in.... for example I like Brunos post because he is right I have to work signatur radius in the name of the postion, because it is part of the desicion process... so it was an point which I have miss... and will try to re-think  .
 


Edit: change the name of one line... I had already a Fast attack line.

[Publius Valerius]

I had forget to had an example to given "name on postion".

So right now we have for example:
x1+x2+(+¬x3)+x4¬y1+¬y2+y3(+¬y4)+z1+¬z2+z3+(¬z4)
Which gives us a Tech 1 Class-Canon with a Shild tank and long range weapons, which sound like a Naga or Cormorant (theSR, aka size comes later). But not so much like a Thrasher, because the agility is low.