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[BloodBird]

Nationalism and patriotism is not, in my oppinion, a bad thing.

I'm proud to be Norwegian. I manage to maintain this feeling most of the time due to a variety of factors. I keep these to myself, unless the topic asks for it.

I consider myself highly patriotic. I served with pride in te army when called and fullfilled my duties faithfully. I was sad, and ashamed, when I was declared unfit for duty and sent home ahead of time. I felt like I had failed, when plenty would rejoiced and celebrated their 'freedom'. I usually keep this to myself.

There are times I consider separate issues and think to myself 'My nation is better than X Y Z in these areas, due these reasons' and I usually keep that to myself.

I'm nationalistic and patriotic like most people when the issue is pressed, but there is one thing about nationalism and patriotism that annoys and insults me. The short and simple of it is the publicity level.

If any man or woman of any nation think to themselves that, they live in the greatest nation on the planet, that's fine. That's a personal oppinion. Perhaps, it's even an analyzed and sumarized conclusion to an official investigation. It's still fine.

When, as an example, George W. B enters Air force 1 after a visit somewhere, turns around and states 'God bless America, and no-one else!', that is NOT cool. That is asking a supposed omnipotent and perfect being to offer it's blessing to one nation only, and denying that to anyone else. I'm no christian, but such a request would not seem very nice to me, being a member of one of the remaining 214 nations on the planet.

When someone writing a document detailing their views and arguments for political and social change in America out-right states that America is the 'greatest' country on the planet, that is not cool.

When Norwegian nationals, riding high after crushing Sweden in football or whatever, state that Norway is the finest country in the world, or something similar, this is when I feel emberrased to be a part of this kingdom.

It don't matter where your from, any implication that your nation is, for whatever reason, superior to all the others also automatically states that everyone else is inferior. Thus I keep all arguments, claims, belifs and oppinions about my own nation's supposed superiority, in any way, shape or field, to myself. Unless of course, the issue is raised, or my comentary on it attracts negative attention.

Then, an explenation is in order.

TL;DR - Being patriotic isn't bad, but talking as if all nations beyond your own is sub-par is insulting to members of said nations, and should be avoided if able.

[Kaleigh Doyle]

Well, I can say with some resolution that I agree with you on most of the points made. In particular, there are moments when I find patriotic sentiments to be downright arrogant at times, especially when divine favor is invoked to protect its 'favorite' <insert group here>.

However, as a Boston Red Sox fan, when I hear a New York Yankees fan belt out 'Go Yankees', an implication that they want their team to overcome mine, or 'The Yankees are the BEST!', another implication that my team is less-than-adequate to meet the standards of said New York team, I don't somehow feel my personal honor besmirched. I recognize that its their opinion, formed over the course of a lifetime as a baseball fan, and while I disagree it does not make them an 'arrogant asshole'.

I treat people's patriotism in the same way. For example, I expect that in an international community, people will still cling very tightly to their place of origin as a means of establishing their identity, and would respect another person's perspective if they stated their country was the best. Now, if for example, such an individual were to often try to levy measured arguments as to why their government is superior to another, say for example... by constantly bringing up the shortcomings of its leaders or a dark historical period better left in the past, as a means for justifying this position, then I would agree with you wholeheartedly, that they are indeed an 'arrogant asshole'. I also think making gross generalizations about large body of people is not only ignorant but leads to things like racism and those other nasty things that happen when you persecute sects of people.

What do you think?

[Jalenar Frost]

Generally agree with the two posts above, with some caveats that I don't care to go into, nor feel it's necessary to express.

Quote from the other thread re: Occupy Wallstreet+, since you want to discuss it here.

The topic at large is irrelevant to me. I don't care to much to educate myself on the specifics and thus should not take part in the discussion at hand. However.

The link I followed and the work I read in there made sense to me in general and I agree with it's contents, minus one line, thus it was' well made' helping to make even this non-American care about his laid-out views. However commenting on it's quaity was clearly a mistake as I ended up commenting on my view on the line I'm in disagreement with, even when I did not want to de-rail the discussion with my views.

Ergo, I had to explain myself elsewhere, and did.
I did not intend to make a jab at the guy, I did however dislike his jab at all not-America nations out here and states so clearly. Foolish of me.

Emphasis mine.

There is no implication of inferiority in the article and as it is directed from one american to another, it's even less so.  I read what you posted above, and that's all well and fine, but it doesn't really apply.  This is not a statement of "I'm X, and all X are better than A-W, +Y and Z".  In context it's an appeal to making what is percieved as the common ground a stronger one. 

You could replace pretty much any nationality in that statement, between two people of that nationality, and really, the only people who will be offended are those who want to be offended or are adding their own connotations that are not implied, or explicit.  Let alone 'Clear'.

[lallara zhuul]

Being from a Nordic country that has shares many cultural aspects with Scandinavian countries, I feel that just about every foreign culture that I have come across seems suboptimal in efficiency, wasteful with their resources, intolerant, incoherent, greedy and simple minded.

But for some strange reason everything works.

Not like a well oiled machine, but things have been working for a lot longer than my culture has even been seen as nothing more than trolls living in the forests, lets face it, two hundred years ago you could not even call the Finns a nation.

Walking down a street that has been there for five hundred, thousand or two thousand years is kind of humbling, because in that time frame my ancestors were pretty much roaming forests hunting elk, being barely more than hunter-gatherers when some people were building pyramids (also committing atrocities and waging wars.)

I agree with Bloodbird about dismissive attitude being a cultural aspect that pisses people off, I am aware that I display it in my communication if I am not careful in how I express myself.

Similar dismissive attitude can very easily become a norm of communication, which in the long run will make anyone dismiss all the opinions being expressed in general from an individual, it can even grow into proportions where people that share characteristics with that individual will be dismissed off hand just like the aforementioned individual.

We see it clearly in EVE with the formation of cliques, there are a few individuals in the community that we all know that have gone down that road, some have recognized this and changed, some have not.

Meh, I am rambling, as always in the morning.

Personally I think this muddle is something that comes from a deep seated need for people to be Right, because they are afraid of being wrong.

Greatest learning always comes from being Wrong and recognizing it, doing things in a different way when a similar situation arises.

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

When people are told when they fail they should just try, try again, it kind of makes me *facepalm*

Before I head to take a long bath in the morning I just want to leave you guys with a thought.

Out beyond ideas of rightdoing
and wrongdoing
There is a field.
I will meet you there.

/end hippy

[Lyn Farel]

I am probably someone weird (actually I am someone weird) but I am almost always disgusted by any form of nationalism, for that I find it petty and obnoxious (personnal opinion). Nationalism is before everything putting the emphasis on your country. I do not see the point. I do not care about my country dating back of whatever era with all of its history. History is fine and something I hold dear, but we are in the 21th century. These days I do not think "fuck yeah I am french my culture and ethics are better than everyone" like most of them do. These days I tell myself that I am european. I strongly believe in the EU, and I am pretty sure that when the EU will overcome all the sovereign states here (I am convinced it will eventually be the case, it has already started) to become some kind of federation, I will be happy. And that day I will probably start thinking that I am not european, but something else. Human ? (cheesy, but thats the idea)

I want to transcend barriers and meet different people. Culturally.

Nationalism is a political ideology that involves a strong identification of a group of individuals with a political entity defined in national terms, i.e. a nation. In the 'modernist' image of the nation, it is nationalism that creates national identity.[1] There are various definitions for what constitutes a nation, however, which leads to several different strands of nationalism. It can be a belief that citizenship in a state should be limited to one ethnic, cultural or identity group, or that multinationality in a single state should necessarily comprise the right to express and exercise national identity even by minorities.[2]

It can also include the belief that the state is of primary importance, or the belief that one state is naturally superior to all other states.[3][4] It is also used to describe a movement to establish or protect a 'homeland' (usually an autonomous state) for an ethnic group. In some cases the identification of a national culture is combined with a negative view of other races or cultures.

Excluding differences caused by the dependencies of the term's meaning upon context, geography and philosophy, patriotism is a devotion to one's country. In a generalized sense applicable to all countries and peoples, patriotism is a devotion to one's country.

I have a lot more tolerence for patriotism. I am probably kindof a patriot myself (though ofc I do not enlist myself in the military and do all the things that a devoted patriot might do). I am not like a lot of people crying because they pay too many taxes, and because it hampers their freedom. The state is the embodiment of our society. Participating to the state is participating to our society. Voting is important, even if all the candidates are moronic twits. Caring about your society is actually something I put a lot of value on. But putting walls and borders everywhere ? That is what nationalism is for me, nothing more. We are in the internet and global networks era, and people continues to live in ethnicities and nations. This whole rigid concept is outdated. And selfish.

For the participation and involvment in the society, I believe in patriotism.

For the affirmation of one's culture (which is important, very important these days where everything is melting together), i believe in cultural traditions and history.

I do not see any place for nationalism here.

[Syylara/Yaansu]

I find no quarrel with any ideal that says "I wish to improve the lives of myself, those around me I love, and those with whom I share bonds of shared sacrifice and prosperity."

I begin to lose the trail about the time it turns into "I wish luxurious excesses for the same, despite that they may came at the cost of others with whom I am not familiar achieving the most basic human necessities."

Or put simply, nationalism or patriotism can be positive.  The competitive drive to create the next thing that will leapfrog ahead of those around you drives up the pace of development and creation of more powerful, more efficient and more reliable ways of delivering upon the desires of society.  We all collectively benefit from the overall rise in quality of living this produces (in theory).

Jingoism, however, is another matter.

Or, as Jon Stewart put it:

Kenya has 3 apples.  America wants those apples.  How many apples does Kenya have? (multiple choice)
a) no apples

When people are told when they fail they should just try, try again, it kind of makes me *facepalm*

I agree, this is "bumper sticker" simplification for our sound-byte culture.  So few value studying the past to find clues of what the future holds.

The proper plan goes something like:
Take inventory
Assess what went right and see if you can keep it
Assess what went wrong and if you can remove or change it
Create a new plan
Then get back on the horse

:9

[Lyn Farel]

Or put simply, nationalism or patriotism can be positive.  The competitive drive to create the next thing that will leapfrog ahead of those around you drives up the pace of development and creation of more powerful, more efficient and more reliable ways of delivering upon the desires of society.  We all collectively benefit from the overall rise in quality of living this produces (in theory).

I don't think you need nations to emulate a competitive environnement.

[orange]

Being from a Nordic country that has shares many cultural aspects with Scandinavian countries, I feel that just about every foreign culture that I have come across seems suboptimal in efficiency, wasteful with their resources, intolerant, incoherent, greedy and simple minded.

I accept sub-optimal efficiency, wasteful w/ resources, incoherent, greedy, and simple minded.

I have a real hard time with intolerant, especially given how homogeneous Scandinavia's population is.

[Dex_Kivuli]

TL;DR - Being patriotic isn't bad, but talking as if all nations beyond your own is sub-par is insulting to members of said nations, and should be avoided if able.

I've always viewed national attitudes in a similar vein to workplaces. I've had a few employers over the years, and each has had a different feel. At each the attitude of the foot-soldiers was subtly different, and the hierarchy of what was important was different.

I think national pride is analogous. We all feel a certain way because of how we're brought up, who we associate with, and the people we know. Some people are a@#! holes about it, some people aren't. Some of those people use national pride as an excuse to hide their fears/bigotry etc. ... and some of them are just a#$! holes.

I'm Australian, and from my experience our version of national pride is a little peculiar. A lot of us like being Australian, usually identifying in some way with the country itself - the environment, the beaches, mates, sport, whatever. It's very rare for Australians to proudly champion our government, or our politicians. In fact, it's almost 'un-Australian' to be a politician.

That said, we have a lot of a@#$ holes. People who are racist, throw around slogans etc. But these people are a vocal minority, as I expect they are in most countries.

[Victoria Stecker]

When someone writing a document detailing their views and arguments for political and social change in America out-right states that America is the 'greatest' country on the planet, that is not cool.

In general, I agree with you. Patriotism is great, but the stated belief that your country is better than someone else's is absurd (Especially when your country is the USA, look at how we rank against the rest of the world on issues like education, healthcare, income distribution, etc).

In the particular instance you quoted, though, I think it's different. I don't read it as the author coming out and saying "we're the best!", but rather as an effort to build common ground with someone he disagrees with. Conservatives in our country tend to hold it in very high esteem ("We're the best!") while liberals tend to notice the glaring flaws and say "lolno."

So in this case, I think it's just a rhetorical tool. Your target audience is a conservative, ex-military, hard working young man who just how proud he is to work like a slave, called everyone whiners and ended the note with "God Bless the USA", then calling the US the greatest nation on earth is a pretty sure-fire way to build some common ground and get the audience to listen to you (Even if you don't actually believe that the US is the greatest, because, well... lolno).

I can, however, see how that sort of thing would be off-putting for someone outside the US to read. Around here, we're just used to it being parrotted even if we don't actually believe it's true.

[BloodBird]

What do you think?

I think I am in agreement with your parguments, for the most part. My only point of slight disagreement is not any of the points you were trying to make, but rather an example you used.

The baseball-fan scenario you described above, while likely being a responce to my own football-based example, is slightly off the point I was making with my own example. That was courtesy of my lacking clarity in describing it. What you seem to want to say with the baseball example is that putting up one's own team while putting down all others 'our team is best' is that it's not something to get insulted over - I agree on this. This is simply fan-boyism, much like anyone else promoting their favorite book, movie or whatever. "This is *THE* best movie ever" - Possible translation - no other movie compares, including your favorite movie. This is just "I like this [insert object of veneration here] better".

My example was meant to be something like this; I start to feel a bit emberrassed being part of the same nation when fellow nationals makes it sound like beating another country in a sport makes us utterly superior to that country in any meaningfull way. Absurd idea, but in hind-sight this might well be more about some extreme fans treating football like the only proper means to be measured with, or like it's the only thing that will ever matter. This might well be another topic for argument entierly and not the best example I could have made.

Secondly, I think I'll go remove the 'arrogent assholery' bit from the end of the tread name, because it's not really needed and right now I feel like I'm being needlessly agressive with it.

When someone writing a document detailing their views and arguments for political and social change in America out-right states that America is the 'greatest' country on the planet, that is not cool.

In general, I agree with you. Patriotism is great, but the stated belief that your country is better than someone else's is absurd (Especially when your country is the USA, look at how we rank against the rest of the world on issues like education, healthcare, income distribution, etc).

In the particular instance you quoted, though, I think it's different. I don't read it as the author coming out and saying "we're the best!", but rather as an effort to build common ground with someone he disagrees with. Conservatives in our country tend to hold it in very high esteem ("We're the best!") while liberals tend to notice the glaring flaws and say "lolno."

So in this case, I think it's just a rhetorical tool. Your target audience is a conservative, ex-military, hard working young man who just how proud he is to work like a slave, called everyone whiners and ended the note with "God Bless the USA", then calling the US the greatest nation on earth is a pretty sure-fire way to build some common ground and get the audience to listen to you (Even if you don't actually believe that the US is the greatest, because, well... lolno).

I can, however, see how that sort of thing would be off-putting for someone outside the US to read. Around here, we're just used to it being parrotted even if we don't actually believe it's true.

Emphasis is mine - thanks for pointing this out. I re-read the article in question and I see your point. Not the most endearing of moved from an 'outsiders' perspective, but your right, it seems like it could work well on the target-audience. "If America is supposedly the best country on the planet, we will need to work to prove that to be true" is more the inteded message, I think.

[Wanoah]

The nation state is a fairly new concept; I sometimes find myself as bemused by patriotism as someone from the 18th century would. It's the intrinsic nationalism I find difficult. Our nations are largely arbitrary in their borders, and they contain a diversity of people that I'm somehow expected to identify with. Frankly, I dislike being lumped together with most of my countrymen: they are stupid and ignorant and they embarrass me. I want to pick something else to be identified as and with, thank you very much.

Then there's the island mentality that goes with it. Nationalism is essentially oppositional. It's us versus them. It's Scotland v England and England v France. It's race versus race, as laughable as the idea of race is as many racists seem to perceive it. It's "England for the English" and who the fuck knows what English is anyway? The bigots, of course, have less of an idea than anyone else, and many of our staunch 'purebred' Englishmen would probably find some interesting ancestors if they went back a generation or two, given our long history of migration, invasion and empire. It's also "Deutschland über alles" and forever tainted in my mind.

On the other hand, I have a very strong love of certain places, landscapes and countryside. If I think of home, I think of a specific kind of gently rolling countryside, or moorland and fells. That's something I identify with. Something I feel protective over. I only wish some of our patriotic property developers felt the same as they shit houses over the landscape like pigs with dysentery.

Then there's the slightly nebulous idea of national character or psyche. I guess these are very broad generalisations about cultural norms, but they do fit national boundaries to some extent. I don't identify with Britishness or Englishness in many ways, but I like evocations of the 'stiff upper lip' or the 'blitz spirit' - I guess the idea that we can collectively be quite calm and stoic in the face of a crisis is both appealing and one that I personally identify with. Whether it actually exists is another question.