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[Matariki Rain]

A request for evidence -- particularly from Isobel, who is well-armed for any battle of wits and sources -- is not a claim that someone is doing it wrong.

With the PF we've got, though, we've established that individual Matari (who are living as Matari) can't just choose to take tattoos, and you have to squint fairly hard at the statement about the Thukker to read it as saying that there are Thukker communities which embrace tattooing and will therefore be in a position to give members the appropriate approval to get inked.

And yet Isobel has said:

I assume what kind of tattooing traditions remain for each Thukker caravan, clan or family would be fairly variable - some would not tattoo at all, and others almost as much as their cousins in other tribes.

This seems to go against the statement that "These people have rejected many of the strongest traditions of the Minmatars, such as the tattooing process."

I'm curious about whether Isobel has another source which supports Thukker tattooing (she's often a good source for such things), whether she's reading the statement about rejecting the tattooing process differently to me (which I've said above is possible, although I myself wouldn't build too much on that reading without a clarification by CCP of a paragraph that's not very clearly worded and seems to go the other way), or whether there's some other reason for taking input which says -- most likely -- that Thukker don't tattoo and coming up with output which says that there would be a range from "not at all" to "almost as much as their cousins in other tribes".

Of course there will probably be people from Thukker backgrounds with tattoos. Some will likely live in the Federation where people will defend their right to take any ink they fancy. Some will have been adopted across tribes (PF suggests that's a last resort but says it's possible). Some will have (scandalously!) unauthorised tattoos but will mix in parts of Minmatar society where no one knows to call them on them. Some might work with Angels or other groups outside Matari ways, where ink might have quite different meanings.

But if I meet someone who claims to be Thukker, living as a Matari, and bearing tattoos, at the moment that's going to have me wondering what's going on there. That has the potential to go anywhere from a really interesting personal story to "they're delusional" or "they're trying to pass as something they're not".

And if I write about Mata's time visiting Thukker caravans to learn about their dances, I can mention how strange it is to be among unmarked Matari who are still Matari, and maybe how people flirted with her differently or not at all because it was immediately obvious from her marks that she was an outsider there. I like that sort of thing, but it doesn't work so well when everyone can do anything. There's a lot that we can plausibly say is open to anyone: why apply that also to the things where the evidence suggests otherwise, thus blurring some really interesting distinctions?

[Casiella]

What you bolded seems to indicate that the Thukkers don't have a set of customs that they follow in general, but rather have rejected even the notion of belonging to a tribe.

Ergo: it's a big cluster. Of course this doesn't apply to all aspects of worldbuilding, and I wouldn't suggest otherwise. But in analyzing the tattoo traditions of a tribe that mostly eschews the concept of tribal traditions, it applies quite well.

[Isobel Mitar]

I assume what kind of tattooing traditions remain for each Thukker caravan, clan or family would be fairly variable - some would not tattoo at all, and others almost as much as their cousins in other tribes.

Why do you assume this? Do you have anything suggesting that the Thukker tattoo at all?

The phrasing of the statement here is awkward, so I'll quote it in full:

The Minmatar society is very much based on tribal society. There are seven major tribes or clans, Sebiestor, Krusual, Brutor, Vherokior, Nefantar, Thukker and Starkmanir.

Of the seven clans, four make up the Minmatar Republic, Sebiestor, Krusual, Brutor and Vherokior. The Starkmanir tribe was almost totally destroyed by the Amarrians after a crushed rebellion four centuries ago, only a handful remain as slaves within the Amarr Empire. The Nefantars collaborated with the Amarrians during the latter control of the Minmatars. They were driven out alongside the Amarrians during the Minmatar Rebellion and today make up what’s commonly known as the Ammatars. Lastly, the Thukkers are scattered throughout the world of EVE, their tribal bindings are very loose and many of them don’t even consider themselves to be a part of a tribe any longer. These people have rejected many of the strongest traditions of the Minmatars, such as the tattooing process.

I do not have any PF beyond the part you quoted - which I quite agree is ambiguous - backing this assumption up. (That was why it was in the speculation post. )

From what you wrote, I believe the likeliest explanation is that my reading of the passage is slightly different from yours. I will try to explain the differences below, my apologies if I at some point have misunderstood your position.

Requoted, to try to clarify my emphasis in reading. Bolding and stuff inside square brackets "[]" are my additions.

Of the seven clans, four make up the Minmatar Republic, Sebiestor, Krusual, Brutor and Vherokior. The Starkmanir tribe was almost totally destroyed by the Amarrians after a crushed rebellion four centuries ago, only a handful remain as slaves within the Amarr Empire. The Nefantars collaborated with the Amarrians during the latter control of the Minmatars. They were driven out alongside the Amarrians during the Minmatar Rebellion and today make up what’s commonly known as the Ammatars. Lastly, the Thukkers are scattered throughout the world of EVE, their tribal bindings are very loose and many of them don’t even consider themselves to be a part of a tribe any longer. These people [who do not consider themselves to be part of a tribe any longer] have rejected many of the strongest traditions of the Minmatars, such as the tattooing process.

I read "many of them" to mean a significant portion of Thukker belong to both "loose tribal bindings" and "don't consider themselves to be part of a tribe" groups.

I speculated that among the "loose tribal bindings" group there would be quite a bit of variability of traditions general to Minmatar/Thukker discarded, kept or adjusted between/inside caravans and family groups. (I theorize caravans and family groups might have taken on some of the social roles of tribes/clans for the Thukker in this group) I further speculated this variability would extend to tattooing traditions also, especially given that Minmatar are not the only ethnicity in Eve practicing tattooing.

To repeat, I quite agree the passage (particularly the last sentence) can be interpreted in different ways, including to read that none of the three clans (Starkmanir, Nefantar, Thukker) that were not part of the formation of the Republic practices tattooing.

I simply read it this way, and my interpretation felt appropriate to me given the fiercely independent nature of the Thukker.

[Matariki Rain]

I read "many of them" to mean a significant portion of Thukker belong to both "loose tribal bindings" and "don't consider themselves to be part of a tribe" groups.

I speculated that among the "loose tribal bindings" group there would be quite a bit of variability of traditions general to Minmatar/Thukker discarded, kept or adjusted between/inside caravans and family groups. (I theorize caravans and family groups might have taken on some of the social roles of tribes/clans for the Thukker in this group) I further speculated this variability would extend to tattooing traditions also, especially given that Minmatar are not the only ethnicity in Eve practicing tattooing.

To repeat, I quite agree the passage (particularly the last sentence) can be interpreted in different ways, including to read that none of the three clans (Starkmanir, Nefantar, Thukker) that were not part of the formation of the Republic practices tattooing.

I simply read it this way, and my interpretation felt appropriate to me given the fiercely independent nature of the Thukker.

Thank you, Isobel. Yes, that clarifies the difference in readings, and yes, your reading is quite possible. (I'd love it if this passage were edited for clarity. )

[Straggler]

I feel that the way Isabel read it is the way I would interpret it.

Thukkers are widely spread, some don't even feel they are part of the Thukker tribe as a whole, and those people quite possibly have discarded traditions. It takes a strong belief in independence to reject one-self from ones tribe and by rejecting traditions they make that separation even greater.

Interesting discussion.