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[Louella Dougans]

Erm, most Matari do use Nanotats. The warpaint chronicle speaks of it.

It does indeed. However, some Minmatar will do things such as remove whole pieces of skin to remove a tattoo, creating a scar, to signify a major change, instead of normal methods such as lasers.

So even if those tattoos were nanotechnology, the manner of their removal, would draw criticism from some Gallente fashionistas.

"cutting off a nanotech tattoo? how savage, what is wrong with simply having the nanotech reprogrammed?"

Another way in which the Gallente don't "get it", but makes absolute sense to the Minmatar.

so, nanotech or needle, various Gallente fashion types would find some way of disapproving of the way the Minmatar use tattoos.

[Matariki Rain]

While I was writing Victoria's responded and got it right. Here's my response anyway.

(as an aside, I don't get the Gallente dislike of tattoos. The Republic was formed 100 years ago, the adults that would have disliked them would be dead, and the youth that loved them would be the adults of today. CCP and their incapability of acute decade-by-decade culture shifts, I suppose)

Hmm, what dislike of tattoos? They are a pretty integral chargen option for Gallete characters, so that would be a tad odd.

The Gallente find the culture of tattoos somewhat barbaric and uncivilized, and early on tried to persuade their Minmatar neighbors to drop this old custom and embrace their future as a civilized nation. Their efforts to this end were initially met with polite denials and later with derision, but interestingly the Gallente youth now find the custom fascinating. Indeed, it is not uncommon to see young Gallente teenagers sporting tribal and gang motifs lifted from their Minmatar peers, symbols of whose true meaning they have little to no knowledge. This can evoke anything between high derision and outright hostility when those so inked encounter true Minmatar.

I read this as a statement about cultural conflict over individuality. To Matari, tattoos show your place in the culture and society, and are not chosen by the individual. To Gallente they're an individually-expressive form of body art.

[....] a Minmatar’s tattoos proclaim who he is, where he came from, what he does, where he has been and what he has experienced. They represent a Minmatar's identity as well as his story. A Minmatar without his markings is not considered a Minmatar at all.

[....]

After the Voluval ceremony the young Minmatar will receive her permanent naming mark which will reside forever on her face. This mark will identify the name, clan and tribe of that Minmatar, plain for all other Minmatar to see. In such a way, two Minmatar meeting for the first time can immediately know these fundamental specifics about each other.

[....]

A Minmatar cannot bestow upon herself just any tattoo. In some cases she may be able to influence styling and shape, but she cannot add a tattoo without having first earned the right. Inking a tattoo upon yourself without permission is considered a grave crime and offenders are subject to severe judicial punishment.

In the Matari practice, tattoos show important aspects of who you are based on things most Matari don't individually control, such as their name, clan, tribe, and their voluval mark. I see this as quite alien to an ethnic Gallente strand of thinking that "we are all precious individuals and we can reinvent ourselves at any time regardless of where we came from". So it's precisely the 'tribalness' of tattooing that's most important to Matari and most awkwardly uncomfortable -- even barbaric -- to Gallente.

Tattooing as a means of self-expression seems to me to be a good fit with what we know of Gallente. A bit more permanent than Mannar-style body painting, sure, but with the modern laser-removal processes also mentioned in the chronicle you can still reinvent yourself when you feel like it.

And the Gallente getting punched in the face "inexplicably" for wearing a tattoo to which s/he has no right...? If they were in the Republic it's possible that they'd be facing local justice for it. (Which raises whole other questions about that would relate to visitors, residents and "aliens", or whether Gallente are just non-starters for involvement in the tribal justice systems and must always turn to Republic justice.)

[Esna Pitoojee]

Going back to the larger Federation / Republic picture, how would this conflict play out in the political angle? Might a high-ranking Republic Tribal leader or Parliamentarian see a Gallente sporting a copy of a tattoo telling the story of some grand escape from slavery or an epic victory in some tribal competition, then go home and start a movement/lobby aimed at making disapproval of Gallente use of Tribal tattoos an official Republic position? Would such a movement be thought of as "fringe crazies" threatening to destroy the beneficial ties to the generous Federation over something they don't even understand, or protectors of a sacred heritage of the Matari? (The entire situation could be reversed, if a Federation senator or something saw someone being discriminated against for a Voluval mark for instance.)

[Cheiftan]

Well from Cheiftan's IC perspective, he is not a fan of the gallente federation as a whole, he feels as if the federation is aborbing his people and then stripping their customs from them.

I supose it would come under a very subtle cultural asimulation.

I can imagen alot of the Matari people would feel that way, especialy the people more in touch with their tribal heratige, so in this respect we could end up with an armed conflict or resistance.

 

[Matariki Rain]

Esna, I can imagine all sorts of different interactions. Think of the angst Gallente schools might have over "allowing" young children to bear their facial clan marking, especially if that was associated with bullying and the formation of school gangs (which I expect it would be, if different groups were schooled together). Or concern over whether the voluval was a form of mutilation or cruelty inflicted on young people. I wouldn't be at all surprised if there were practices which raised the same sorts of concerns that veiling did in French schools, or that childhood-or-rite-of-passage circumcision/genital-mutilation raises more widely.

I find it hard to decide how likely these conflicts are, though, because I don't know some key things about the proportions and "clumping" of different Matari cultural groups in the Federation or the Republic. I'm not thinking here of tribal groups, but of "Gallente-ised Matari", "tribal/neoTraditional Matari" and "Amarrish-speaking descendants of slaves". The nearly-a-third of the Fed that's Matari could be quite fragmented.

Also, what's the likely official Gallente line on childhood? When does someone become an adult? When is it okay to start modding yourself? How much is it okay for a parent to have a child modded for good looks, talents, etc?

I think I'll stop now before this veers wildly off topic. I can brain-dump at length about this sort of thing but I'm not honestly sure how many people are interested in the places it goes, including the theory that Amarrians -- given their apparent cultural descent from the Religions of the Book -- use male circumcision to mark the "chosen" from the "savages", and how that might have influenced the various other cultural attitudes to genital modification.

[Vieve]

I find it hard to decide how likely these conflicts are, though, because I don't know some key things about the proportions and "clumping" of different Matari cultural groups in the Federation or the Republic. I'm not thinking here of tribal groups, but of "Gallente-ised Matari", "tribal/neoTraditional Matari" and "Amarrish-speaking descendants of slaves". The nearly-a-third of the Fed that's Matari could be quite fragmented.

Thanks for commenting before I finished writing mine.  You expressed this idea far better than I did in my original ramble.

Seriphyn earlier touched on the idea of "high culture" Gallenteans having a conflict with "low culture" Matari.  I think there'd perhaps be less of that in the Federation (though no doubt there's endless verbal hemorrhaging about it on Federation sociopolitical talk shows) than working class Gallentean/Jin-Mei/Mannar/Intaki having a conflict with an influx of Matari immigrants.  Perhaps not so much in the Matari border areas these days (or places like Luminaire, Villore or Dodixie), but on the distant edges of the Federation.  Have there been well meaning charity organizations shipping recently liberated agricultural or mining slaves from Amarr out to colonies in the ass-end of Verge?  Or have there been corporations wanting to improve their bottom line by replacing their unionized workers with these folks?

And what about those Matari who support the Unionist Party?   Theirs could be a fascinating situation.  If I remember right, their party calls for workers' rights, fair wages and workplace safety -- regulations imposed at a macrogovernment level, instead of left to tribal/local/clan governments.  They could find themselves butting heads with their own people over this.

[Seriphyn]

There are Minmatar deadspace colonies in Fed space governed by an elder. Deadspace areas may be free reign for foreign groups to come and settle in the Fed.

Anyway, culture clashes (and ties aside), intelligence sharing is likely quite extensive. It's not suggested the FIO are deficient anywhere, but they might use the RSS's ties to the underworld. Might have a UK-US special relationship

[Louella Dougans]

some of the Minmatar people living in the Federation may have awkward voluval marks, and as such would effectively be claiming some form of refugee/asylum status. This could cause some friction between the Federation and Republic, assuming the Federation knew about the reasons why.

E.g. in the mission "shaman secrets", this is mentioned:

The Disgraced Son
The Brutor, Hnarlir Afer, has been an outcast from his home-world, Matar, ever since his Voluval ritual. The mark it left behind was so shameful even his loving father disowned him. He moved to the Gallente Federation, where hardly anyone recognized the mark or paid it any attention. There he began a life of a mercenary, having been bred as a space pilot by his military veteran father.

He quickly made a name for himself, before becoming a freelancer. Using the wealth he garnered from that profession, he started up his own corporation, The Markoni Dragons. It has been quite successful, earning Hnarlir a small fortune.

But even with his change of fortune, Hnarlir greatly misses his homeworld. He desperately wants to return and reclaim a position within his nation of birth. But he dares not return with the mark on his cheek as visible as ever. His family has suffered enough shame on his behalf already.

Yet Hnarlir still has hope. Hope that his ‘condition’ can finally be modified. Even though it goes against everything the Minmatar consider holy, Hnarlir is just desperate, and wealthy, enough to pull it off. He wants to learn the method which the Vheriokor shamans use to perform the Voluval ritual and modify the mark so that it no longer resembles the symbol of the Ammatar Mandate.

[Seriphyn]

An old news item had a Minmatar ethnic who considered himself Gallentean but undertook the voluval. This isn't too surprising, its exactly the same as Sikhs calling themselves British.

If I wanted to be a bitch, i would say CCP are trying to retcon these shared elements out cause they think Minmatar are awesome and were never so helpless to require help from the Gallente nor "weak" enough to be assimilated.[/whine]

But tribal traditionalists calling themselves Gallentean is really not surprising if RL trends have anything to say about it. Just CCP are a fan of homogenizing opinions

[Lyn Farel]

I wouldn't be at all surprised if there were practices which raised the same sorts of concerns that veiling did in French schools, or that childhood-or-rite-of-passage circumcision/genital-mutilation raises more widely.

I want to emphasize this because I know at least a little about this veiling debate. It is old, and still going (especially with our current conservative zealous president). France is by definition in its constitution a layman/non religious state (like a lot of countries in the EU), and the state can't have a single link of any kind with any religious institution (which implies executive, legislative or justice power). That way the state is totally separated from religion. Though the constitution also states in the same part that any religious practices are allowed and that you can't tell people not to practice them (except if they go against the rules ofc, like sects, Scientology, etc, and even these are difficults problems as the Scientology is still allowed even after all the trials to declare it illegal, thanks to their lobbies). The veiling caused some issues because it is still forbidden in schools, and they also made a new law several years ago to forbid "ostentatious" religious signs like huge roods to be more fair to the muslim religion. In my opinion it is totally dumb because you can't forbid to anyone the right to practice their religion unless it is harmful in any way for others, but it is totally harmless it these cases. But some people share other opinions on the matter when it comes to schools (like for example they don't like to see children creating their own gaps between people that look different). More recently there was also the debate around the burka, with its detractors pointing out that was an attempt against women rights (it is now also forbidden in public if im right, and this is a very much more delicate debate than mere veils).

So yes, my point is that kind of things with the voluval and all could definitly be a very deep RP axis in the Federation RP universe.

[Vieve]

I wouldn't be at all surprised if there were practices which raised the same sorts of concerns that veiling did in French schools, or that childhood-or-rite-of-passage circumcision/genital-mutilation raises more widely.

So yes, my point is that kind of things with the voluval and all could definitly be a very deep RP axis in the Federation RP universe.

I can see where Federation voluval supporters, when faced with restrictions or the like, might be a bit resentful of the Intaki lobbyists and officials who have turned the debate about the Intaki Rebirth Ceremony into political suicide for any who oppose it.*

*At least I've always assumed it was political suicide, considering I haven't seen any PF (please direct me to it if I'm wrong) mentioning that some Gallenteans/Jin-Mei/Mannar/Galtaki/Caltaki have tried to get it banned, and it's been mentioned that the Federation bureaucracy is home to a lot of Intaki.

[GoGo Yubari]

I can see where Federation voluval supporters, when faced with restrictions or the like, might be a bit resentful of the Intaki lobbyists and officials who have turned the debate about the Intaki Rebirth Ceremony into political suicide for any who oppose it.*

*At least I've always assumed it was political suicide, considering I haven't seen any PF (please direct me to it if I'm wrong) mentioning that some Gallenteans/Jin-Mei/Mannar/Galtaki/Caltaki have tried to get it banned, and it's been mentioned that the Federation bureaucracy is home to a lot of Intaki.

I wish I could find the PF source for the Gallente views on Rebirth so I could check the wording, but no success right now.

My remembrance of it is that the text would not indicate whether there had been efforts to ban it with legislation or not, but just that it was viewed with suspicion. That could go in any of several ways: 1) they've tried to ban it, 2) yolur idea of an Intaki bloc stopping it or 3) there has never actually been legislation proposed to ban it and the dislike is merely a cultural factor. We don't really know right now.

Edit - Found it.

[ 2006.04.30 19:50:34 ] Vremaja Idama > Phantomas, as you might know, the Intaki belief and traditions have become less strongly followed over the years.
[ 2006.04.30 19:51:32 ] Vremaja Idama > Many of the Idamas, and the Reborn have been targetted for threats and insults - we are called child killers, frauds, cult leaders and other things
[ 2006.04.30 19:52:57 ] Vremaja Idama > The Intaki are often viewed as "throwbacks" to a less advanced time. But what many do not understand is that we seek a balance. We seek to live in harmony with our surroundings, something many Gallente (or others) find hard to understand