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[Dex_Kivuli]

Hi people.

I have a pretty important question for people, and one that has initiated a lot of different opinions in RL. Those of you that know me know that I'm a person of earnest, and this thread is started with serious intent, and genuine interest in peoples' experiences.

First off, I think this is an especially good question to ask this forum because I don't know any of you in RL. You can maintain anonymity and not incriminate yourselves in any way, shape or form. If you want, don't respond to this thread, and just send me a private message. But the important aspect is that I think most RPers are pretty intelligent people, both in the creative and logical parts of life. I also know that some of you are slightly older, and have had some experience around the traps of life, so I'd be interested in your opinions/experiences on the issue.

My question: what does anyone think about the Landmark Forum?

Personally, I don't know much about it. Someone very close to me has suggested that I do it, and I value this person's view incredibly highly. But every opinion I seek so far seems to be  extreme: hard core fans, or hard core opponents.

What I'd value most highly is personal experiences. If you've done it yourself, fantastic. I've you're very close to someone who's done it (both before and after), also great. But if you've just heard of it now and Googled the topic, then that's not really what I'm looking for.

So let fly everyone, and give me your opinions. If you don't want it on Backstage - as I said earlier - send me a private message (either in the forum, or in-game).

Thanks in advance (and mods, feel free to banish me to Hell if this isn't welcome).

DK

[Casiella]

Context? What is the Landmark Forum? If you mean this, as long as people stay civil in their responses then I don't see why it can't be discussed here.

[Ken]

Anything that costs $500 and ends with "a sales presentation at which course attendees bring other people to learn about and sign up for [it]" sounds like bunk to me.  I don't care what the content is.  Alternately, it sounds like a great way to make 75 grand a pop if you're an event organizer.  This evaluation is derived entirely from the Wiki article Cas linked, however, and I have no direct experience with what you're asking about, Dex.

[lallara zhuul]

Why are you seeking such guidance that these guys seem to be providing to people?

There are several things that I disagree about with the approach that I interpreted from the Wiki article, but I cannot go into them deeper unless I know why are you even considering giving away your free will to a group like this.

[Dex_Kivuli]

Why are you seeking such guidance that these guys seem to be providing to people?

There are several things that I disagree about with the approach that I interpreted from the Wiki article, but I cannot go into them deeper unless I know why are you even considering giving away your free will to a group like this.

I don't think it's necessarily giving away my free will. If I did choose to go, I seriously doubt that they'd be able to persuade me one way or the other, even if they are as bad as some people seem to think they are. The fact does remain though: a lot of people have done the courses, and speak of them in very favourable ways. There is always the possibility that these people just think the courses are awesome, and they are trying to get others along - not because they have given away their free will - but rather because they think there is genuine value in the course.


The way I see it, there are three possibilities: (1) it's a truly fantastic course that gives participants a lot {best case} (2) it's a money making scheme that just trumpets trite and obvious self-help diatribes {harmless but a waste of money} or (3) it's a dodgy scheme, trying to manipulate people in to manipulating others in to feeding the money-making monster {worst case}.

I can already tell from reading the forums/wiki/other stuff that one of those three cases above is accurate. However, I don't know which of the many sources is most reliable. This is why I'm looking for peoples' opinions, especially people who might have first hand experience. I understand that there are people championing both extrememes, and that in all likelihood both of those groups are wrong. I'm pretty sure that outcome (2) is most likely, but I'm trying to understand if it's (2) leaning towards (1), or (2) leanding towards (3).

[Mizhara]

Cults. Meh.

[lallara zhuul]

The thing is... when you change your worldview, you have to deconstruct the old.
The problem with this 'thing' is that on top of that they construct a new one.
They give you a set of beliefs that will make you 'better'.

Both concepts, right and wrong are subjective.
Each and every belief is subjective.
Each and every belief that you have is not yours, it has been taught to you.
There are no such things as good beliefs, because beliefs work with old information.

Awareness of now and capability to make your decisions in each and every situation according to the current information, instead of old habitual patterns, is where I personally am striving towards.

It's not a long weekend course, its something that will take years.
Change when it happens is so small that its imperceptible.
In a time frame of years change occurs, not in a short period of time.

Because there are no fast cures.
There is no medicine.

There is no pill that will make everything better.

Meh, better get some sleep, I'm rambling again.

[Matariki Rain]

Hmmm....

I'm not as close to it as you've requested: I became aware that there was a successor to "est" operating in my country mainly because a portion of my old RP group got into "The Forum", but that was after I'd moved city. The most visible outcome was that one guy smartened up his life and repeatedly phoned one of the other group members (who he fancied) to go on the courses.

I'd venture that it's a blend of 1, 2 and 3, which is why it's hard to generalise.

I think it is a hard-sell pyramid scheme which gets people to a vulnerable state and then pushes them to "share the good things they've learnt with their friends and families" by getting them to pay the money and drink the Kool-Aid, too.

The product inside the packaging seems to help some people view their lives in ways which they find usefully different, though. It does this through a blend of guided  discussion, reflection and challenge, and, well, body-hacks, mind-hacks and social-hacks aimed at bringing about psyche-hacks. If you're new to this stuff I imagine it could seem transformative. The whole process is designed to open you up so you question what you know or think you know, and so you'll be more open to taking on new ideas and approaches. As I understand it, it includes "rational" information, an emotional roller-coaster, mild-to-moderate sleep-deprivation, and generally there's social homework including calling your family and close friends.

This is not necessarily bad, but if you're like most humans this is aimed at it'll mean you become very vulnerable for a time. It's the application of (mostly-mild?) brainwashing techniques as a medium for personal development. (I'm using this term descriptively, not emotively, by the way, and I note that it's a fairly common part of ecstatic religious experience.)

I'm wary of letting anyone near me with that "hack" toolset unless I know and trust them, have reason to believe they know what they're doing and are on my side, and I'm pretty sure I've got solid aftercare. You'll make your own calls about those things, but at the least I'd suggest continuing with the preparatory research you're doing, making sure you have your own aftercare organised (because their "aftercare" seems to be a hard sales pitch), and considering doing whatever it takes so you won't be able to sign up for more of the Kool-Aid without a cooling off period (give your bank cards to a trusted friend who's not attending, for instance).

[Z.Sinraali]

The product inside the packaging seems to help some people view their lives in ways which they find usefully different, though. It does this through a blend of guided  discussion, reflection and challenge, and, well, body-hacks, mind-hacks and social-hacks aimed at bringing about psyche-hacks. If you're new to this stuff I imagine it could seem transformative. The whole process is designed to open you up so you question what you know or think you know, and so you'll be more open to taking on new ideas and approaches. As I understand it, it includes "rational" information, an emotional roller-coaster, mild-to-moderate sleep-deprivation, and generally there's social homework including calling your family and close friends.

All of which can be obtained for likely much cheaper and less annoying by doing your own research, buying a few books, and maybe seeing a therapist or similar life advice professional.

That's my general view on seminars of this sort anyways. There's nothing you can learn in a weekend that you can't learn by doing your own homework. Some people's cognitive styles might make it easier that way, but that's true for just about everything.

[Saede Riordan]

my suggestion is that you don't need expensive seminars in order to change yourself and make yourself a better person. From what my friends have told me who've gone to Landmark, I'm capable of providing rather similar advice. I don't consider myself some font of knowledge, but maybe looking for cheaper advice will be better.

[Crucifire]

The more I read this thread, the more this ominous establishment is sounding like Scientology.

[DrizzCat]

Beware Xenu?

[Dex_Kivuli]

Beware Xenu?

I'm tempted to sign up for Scientology, working my way through the ranks until the secret of Xenu is revealed to me. Then - whenever the topic of Xenu arises - I'd just repeat the sentence but say "Heth" instead.

[Wanoah]

These guys won't have anything you can't dig up for free on the Internet.

Try starting here:

http://zenhabits.net/start/