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[Makkal]

Not trying to make a false analogy, but just relaying the connections in my head, reading the arguments for banninating porn I actually saw a comment in response to a newspaper article which was apparently irony-free and suggesting that porn was a bad role model for our children.

 
 
Porn is not supposed to be a role model for your children.  It serves an entirely different purpose.

I think you're underselling porn here.

[Pieter Tuulinen]

47% of the gaming population are women, so not a minority. Though this does not say how much time they spend compared to men, nor which kind of games they favor.

I question that statistic. Perhaps as a very low level 'people who have bought a game or played a game in their life' it is true, but I'd be more interested in percentage of dollars spent against gender.

And yes, I think we need to go back to the various genres and ask questions about gender demographics.

Being a game dev myself, I could not ask more to see more women in the industry. Just 2 programmer women on a team of 35 devs is ridiculously low, but still something for a studio dealing in "hardcore" gaming, which is rather telling.

What? Where are all your female artists and animators?

The question is, when will video games eventually mature and become adult ? And is cinema adult enough to begin with ? For that precise reason, being critical, especially on sex equality in games, is important.

None of this years summer blockbusters passed the Bechel test, I think. I'm actually not sure that the two (!) female characters in the new Star Wars film were even onscreen at the same time.

Games are FAR from the only medium with issues - they still talk about whether enough BOOKS in the mainstream pass the Bechel test, and we've had the printed word since Martin Luther!

[Lyn Farel]

What? Where are all your female artists and animators?

We are 4-5 artists max. We had one in internship though. Even when I was still at studies a year ago, there were not many females, be it for artists, game designers, sound designer, producers, or programmers. 3 to 52 for my year, and 12 for 45 in the previous one. I would say the average was around 1 for 6 or something.

[Pieter Tuulinen]

I think we came close to hitting 60:40 male to female in our art department. It's always been the area with the most women, in my experience.

This was a team of.... One hundred and forty, I think.

[Kala]

I think you're underselling porn here.

Porn should be free! 

None of this years summer blockbusters passed the Bechel test, I think.

Doesn't surprise me.  Summer blockbusters tend to be fairly mindless, though.  I'd take something by Studio Ghibli (as an example) over a hollywood blockbuster, in all sorts of ways. 

This is kind of interesting, though, about Pacific Rim (which I haven't seen but sounds interesting)

http://www.dailydot.com/fandom/mako-mori-test-bechdel-pacific-rim/

I like the director very much (Pan's Labyrinth!) and don't know if the film counts as a blockbuster or not (as not seen it) but interesting article about how it fails the Bechdel test vs "her character is neither sexually objectified nor given a narrative arc that revolves around a man" and whether or not the Bechdel test should always be applicable.

Games are FAR from the only medium with issues - they still talk about whether enough BOOKS in the mainstream pass the Bechel test, and we've had the printed word since Martin Luther!

Certainly.  Though that's a bad thing; one medium with issues would be better But then, that goes back to the media-creating-and-reflecting-society bit - in light of that it would be surprising for the problem to be isolated, as it's our society in general.  Games, along with comics, seem to have the worst issues though, as much in the communities surrounding the media as the product itself. 

I think that's probably due to a few things...maybe due to the relationship with censorship; which cinema and books suffer with themselves, ofc, but comics and games (wrongly, imo) get so associated with children that they get caught up in controversy easier which, in turn, makes the communities hyper-defensive of them and close ranks.  One theory, anyways. And geeky pursuits have been considered traditionally male, whereas books and cinema less so (though literature and the theatre were once).  Some seem to resent intrusion into a space they see as (however erroneously) uniquely their own.

[Shiori]

I like the director very much (Pan's Labyrinth!) and don't know if the film counts as a blockbuster or not (as not seen it) but interesting article about how it fails the Bechdel test vs "her character is neither sexually objectified nor given a narrative arc that revolves around a man" and whether or not the Bechdel test should always be applicable.

As a little side note: the Bechdel test wasn't ever intended to be a pass/fail test for a single movie. It's more of a consciousness raiser - it shows how strangely rare it is for movies, in aggregate, to show something as basic as two women talking about something.

[Nmaro Makari]

See, when people say; "But that's not how it is in real life, bro!", this pertaining remember, to a virtual make-believe world...

What they're actually saying is "STOP TOUCHING MY THINGS, HOW DARE YOU SAY BAD STUFF ABOUT MY THINGS!"

 

[Nmaro Makari]

Also before anyone tries to call me on the court, I'm playing GTA and it's fucking amazing so far.

See that's the thing people need to get into their heads; being not just feminist but anywhere at all inclined to vague equality doesn't mean you have to be some bra-burning-vegan-hippy-killjoy.

Instead of footstamping and whining in some intellectual daily, most people just say, "You know what'd be cool? More good female characters."

Which is why i still can't ascribe any motive other than selfish childishness to the gamers tying their panties in a twist over the review or people who share the sentiment.

[Kala]

 

See that's the thing people need to get into their heads; being not just feminist but anywhere at all inclined to vague equality doesn't mean you have to be some bra-burning-vegan-hippy-killjoy.

Instead of footstamping and whining in some intellectual daily, most people just say, "You know what'd be cool? More good female characters."

Which is why i still can't ascribe any motive other than selfish childishness to the gamers tying their panties in a twist over the review or people who share the sentiment.

Is this specific to GTA or in general? (I wondered if it was GTA specific due to your first bit and "the review")

Regarding GTA my stance is  - it's an adult game, it's meant to represent criminals, thuggery, mobsters etc and the world they inhabit and is not supposed to be a role model to anyone.  It's riffing off a genre that has its own expectations.  Which is not to say someone can't find problems with it, just that I don't. (or haven't with the previous titles anyways, haven't got the new one)

I think a lot of people are annoyed that, even when you get the mechanic to select a protagonist, none of them are female.  Kind of like a lot of people seemed miffed that the next incarnation of the Doctor in Doctor Who won't be female.  I'm not really fussed by either for a few reasons... which I won't go into as will take another mammoth post.   
 
But in general, I think it's totally fine to muse quietly "You know what'd be cool? More good female characters" (tho obviously 'good' is subjective; to some that might be in aesthetics, attitude, to others that means credible) but another aspect to all this is, while it's more inclusive to stick a load of playable female protagonists into games, it's more treating the symptom of the problem.  It's also fine to question how female characters are already represented and why.  Or why there may be a comparative lack of 'good' female characters in the first place.

It doesn't hurt anyone to ask those questions.  It certainly doesn't hurt gaming.

I think there's a lot of knee-jerk sentiments going around from all sides - some of that does seem to be being a 'killjoy' I won't entirely disagree.  I think sometimes things can get obscured as questioning things seems to get confused with censoring them (oddly), and a lot of criticism re: female characters can come across as puritanical and/or overly PC.  That said, there's a vast amount of sexist douchebaggery, immaturity and entitlement going on as well so....yeah.

The 'selfishness' from all sides is likely to come from the fact that gamers all love their hobby; and some find it extremely wearying that their hobby has became politicised and caught up in endless debates, and others find it extremely wearying that they're being consistently marginalised within the hobby they enjoy. Everyone's selfish, everyone's tired but I wonder if everyone can agree that gaming as a medium needs to grow up a bit and we can all benefit from more quality innovative games?  Maybe simplistic but that seems like 'the solution' to me.