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[Casiella]

Out of curiosity, how do these projects square with PF on translation?

[Horatius Caul]

Out of curiosity, how do these projects square with PF on translation?

It takes a lot of effort to make a language fluidly machine-translatable with the efficiency that machine translators seem to have in EVE. The way I see it, automatic translation is reserved for the de facto official languages of the five empires. Some other languages may have partial auto-translation, but they simply aren't popular or important enough to warrant the effort.

For example, in the case of Amarrad and Napanii the languages are old and not in common use. Newer languages have taken the floor and enjoy machine translation. The same would go for a reconstructed or minority Khanid language - it's either a dead tongue rebuilt by scholars and understood by a handful, or it's a minority language - one with no geographical situation either, meaning its users most likely end up having to use Amarish anyway.

That's kinda why we haven't got any major projects to create languages for Amarish, Gallentean, Caldanese or Matari - they're all rendered into English at all times.

[Matariki Rain]

I'd like to hear your interpretation, then.

Okay...

My take on it is that the Amarrian Empire has a language, and that language is Amarish.^[1]

Amarrian Scripture has accumulated over the millennia. "[M]any of the earliest books of Scripture appear to have been written directly by the founding prophet" Dano Gheinok who preached over 15,000 years ago, around the time when the EVE gate closed and the EVE civilisations collapsed. I think it's those very old portions of Scripture that "hearken back to the very origins of Amarr society, written in a tongue so ancient as to be unreadable by today's Amarrians": most likely the ancient ancestor of modern Amarish.^[2]

I don't think that all Scripture is written in "Ancient Amarish": I think Scripture is written in whatever version of the language is current when it's written.

The other half of that quotation is: "[t]he collective writings have been maintained and updated throughout the centuries by Imperial Theologians".^[3] It's up for discussion how much of that maintenance and updating is selection of texts for inclusion and study, and how much is updating the language of older texts so they communicate their messages correctly. If we assume that the Book of Gheinok is even vaguely contemporary with Dano Gheinok 15,000 years ago it would be one of those ancient-language texts, and yet we have it and use it in a translation that seems to be intelligible even to those without capsuleer translation implants.

I think people in the Khanid kingdom most likely speak Amarish.

The people known as Khanid were "[a]mong the oldest of the bloodlines to be assimilated by the Amarr". According to the histories they were contentedly, and in some cases zealously, part of the Amarrian Empire for around 3000 years. "A large Khanid population" lives in territories which were not part of House Khanid's demesne when Khanid II seceded, and have remained with the Empire. "Today, a large Khanid population remains in Amarr, loyal to the faith and royalty of the Empire. Many of them yearn for the day when the two kingdoms will reunite." To me, a group that was "assimilated" 3000 years ago and distributed through a wider empire most likely speaks the language of that empire.^[4]

I think the peaceful missionary approach to conversion is relatively new for Amarr (and possibly not something they're good at yet).

Before encountering the Federation, around 167 years ago, I think Amarr had conquered every culture it encountered.^[5] It was sort of "what Amarr did", bringing truth, justice and the Amarrian way, using the sword and the laser. My sense is that they're now exploring the idea of converting people with words rather than with force, but that the idea of making religious instruction manuals in other languages is novel, and possibly seen as a stepping stone to the Real Thing in Amarish. That's just my feel for it, though.

Also, the fact that Amarrish is the official language of the Empire doesn't mean that there aren't other languages spoken. As Odelya pointed out, in the history of human empires it was rather the rule that they were multi-lingual. The Persian Empires, the Roman Empire, the Empire of Alexander the Great, the Ottoman Empire, the British Empire, the Holy Roman Empire, ... actually, I can't think of a single Empire in the history of humankind where all languages but one were eliminated.

Of course the Amarr would insist that their language will be installed as lingua franca regardless of whether there are also other languages spoken within the Empire.

At this point I think we're each asserting our preferences. I think the language of daily life and religion in the Amarrian Empire is most likely to have superseded whatever might have been there beforehand among the people-we-now-call-Khanid who were--note the choice of words--"assimilated" into the Amarrian Empire around 3000 years ago. It sounds like you don't.

We could argue about things like Romance languages and the differences between the areas where vulgar Latin did supplant the previous local language vs the places where it didn't. While that debate might be interesting in its own right^[6], I don't think it would tell us much about the Khanid. I've read the PF and I think--okay, I'm pretty sure--that Khanid speak Amarrian. You've read it and you think they speak something else. Only CCP can tell us for certain.


^[1] "All the major races in EVE speak their own language [....] Amarish, the language of the largest empire [....]" http://community.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=apr02
^[2] "Gheinok appears early in the Scriptures as a preacher and a prophet." http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Dano_Gheinok#History
"While it appears that Dano Gheinok based much of his religious views off an established dogma, many of the earliest books of Scripture appear to have been written directly by him." http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Dano_Gheinok#Religious_Influence
"8000 AD Dano Gheinok proclaims himself prophet and sets the foundations of the Amarr theocracy state to come" http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Timeline (NB: Dano Gheinok may have had a long life, or one of the versions of the history might be reversed or retconned: the timeline mentions him 72 and 61 years before the collapse of the EVE gate, but his biographical entry describes him as "the first recorded leader of the Amarr people following the collapse of the EVE Gate". It's only 72 or 61 years difference, around 15,000 years ago, so let's shrug about natural long lifespans for Amarr and move on.)
^[3] "The collective writings have been maintained and updated throughout the centuries by Imperial Theologians and include texts that hearken back to the very origins of Amarr society, written in a tongue so ancient as to be unreadable by today's Amarrians." http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/The_Scriptures
^[4] "Among the oldest of the bloodlines to be assimilated by the Amarr, the Khanid people have endured the political turmoil of their leaders with great dignity and calm. Originally fellow settlers alongside the Amarr on the planet Athra — known today as Amarr Prime — the Khanid were swept up by the nation of Amarr and the powerful message of their faith during the height of the original Reclaiming. For centuries they were exalted members of Amarr society, until a bitter feud between the Empire and an Amarr heir representing the Khanid forced an outright secession of the bloodline's majority, and the subsequent creation of the independent Khanid Kingdom. Today, a large Khanid population remains in Amarr, loyal to the faith and royalty of the Empire. Many of them yearn for the day when the two kingdoms will reunite." http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Khanid_%28bloodline%29
"AD 20078    The Reclaiming is launched. The Amarrians start a war to conquer all the lands on Athra [....]
AD 20544    The Amarrians conquer the last state on Athra. They now control the whole planet" http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Timeline
Current date is around AD 23236 (YC 0) + YC 114 = AD 23350.
^[5] http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Timeline Fun tip: search in-page for "conquer".
^[6]"A group (a state or an ethnicity) can spontaneously adopt a different culture due to its political relevance, or to its perceived superiority. The first is the case of the Latin language and culture, that were gradually adopted by most of the subjugated people." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_assimilation#Cultural_influence

[Nicoletta Mithra]

First, thanks for your interpretation. I think I do largely agree, save for one pretty importnat point:

I think the peaceful missionary approach to conversion is relatively new for Amarr (and possibly not something they're good at yet).

Before encountering the Federation, around 167 years ago, I think Amarr had conquered every culture it encountered.^[5] It was sort of "what Amarr did", bringing truth, justice and the Amarrian way, using the sword and the laser. My sense is that they're now exploring the idea of converting people with words rather than with force, but that the idea of making religious instruction manuals in other languages is novel, and possibly seen as a stepping stone to the Real Thing in Amarish. That's just my feel for it, though.

I strongly disagree that PF indicates that the Amarr conquered every culture they encountered and I highly doubt that peacful mission is new for the Amarr. I'm basing this on the evelopedia entrance about the Reclaiming:

Origins

The Reclaiming began in 20078 AD, shortly after the Udorians landed on Amarr Island on Athra. The introduction of foreign elements into Amarr society spurred rapid change, leading religious leaders to realize that they must suppress all outside elements, lest their power would be broken by the more open Udorian culture. [1]

Branding other cultures and religions heretical and in defiance to God's grace, the Amarr launched the Reclaiming. Though the young Amarr Empire had less population and resources than the rich, influential Udorians, they were unified by religious fervor. The Udorians, meanwhile, existed in a variety of fractured states, many of whom distrusted each other significantly.


Khanid encounter

An early turning point in the Reclaiming came when the Amarr first encountered the Khanid people. Militant, sturdy, and bearing a long-burning dislike of the more advanced Udorians, the Khanid jumped at the chance to join in the conquest. They also proved eager religious zealots, quickly converting to the Amarr religion and the promise of glory in God's service. [2]

With the assistance of the Khanid, the Amarr methodically conquered and enslaved the disparate Udorian states. By 20371 AD, the Udorians had been completely subsumed, leaving the Amarr to turn on the other, forgotten cultures of Athra. It took less than 200 years to finish their conquest of the planet, which the Amarr later renamed Amarr Prime. [1]

So, it seems to me that while the Udorians were less centralized, they still had the advantage of numbers. The Amarr countered this not only with centralization, but by allying themselves with the people who had the Udorians as common enemies: the Khanid. Only with their assistance the Amarr conquered and enslaved the Udorians. Also, the Khanids did, according to the source, convert eagerly to the Amarrian religion. I think that implies that they did so willingly and that the Amarr proselytized peacfully in their regard. After all, they were dependent to a certain degree on the Khanid in their war against the Udorians and would certainly have had little luck with doing so, if they'd have been at war with the Khanid as well.

This means that the Khanid people were not conquered by the Amarr and that the first foreign culture that joined them did so, in fact, peacefully. This, coupled with the fact that the Khanid embrace their warrior traditions and they are an independend bloodline leads me to the conclusion that, while they have been assimilated religiously and politically, they kept their other traditions. (Though I think that most of them do in fact speak Amarish as well as Khanid.)

Still, you are probably right that it's a question of preference whether or not one is speaking for or against the Khanid still having a distinct language at their disposal.

[Odelya]

When it comes to the Reclaiming on Athra there was a mix of word and sword:

Around 16450 AD, Amash-Akura began a war of conquest against his neighbors. He won several early victories, crushing several lesser warlords and taking their cities for his own. In each city, he installed members of the clergy as its rulers, allowed his soldiers a few weeks of rest and recruited new followers, then moved on to the next battle. Within five years, he had full control of the central area of Amarr Island, controlling the majority of roads and thus trade among the Amarr.

The decisive victories and charismatic nature of Amash-Akura won him many willing followers. The church especially favored him, once he had proven his military acumen, and put their full support behind his conquest. Upon hearing of the church's decree, the warlord of the city-state Iphria declared his fealty to Amash-Akura.

From that point on, Amash-Akura changed his strategy to one that came to be known as “the light or the flame.” He would send messengers to the rulers of a city-state, promising to allow them to remain in power should they submit to him and follow his laws. If they refused, he would march his army to the city, besiege it, and offer the enemy soldiers their lives if they surrendered and turned over their masters. Should this too fail, Amash-Akura would sack the city and kill every soldier and their leaders, while sparing those who had not raised arms against him.

While many rulers attempted to hold out, many more willingly surrendered to Amash-Akura. By 16470 AD, the last opposition on the island was crushed and Amash-Akura ruled unchallenged. (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Amash-Akura)

While assimilation is a strong term describing integration to a culture, it doesn't necessarily equal equation. So I agree with Nicoletta in this regard. But the Khanid are exceptional in this regard. Its definitely a question of preference—and Odelya speaks Khanid ;-) But of course she also speaks Amarrish.

[Nicoletta Mithra]

Found some more info about how the Khanid came to join the Empire and the pivotal role of the Khanid family in this:

The Khanid Family, then known by a different name, was originally a noble house on Amarr Island during the early years of the Reclaiming. The family was instrumental in bringing the Khanid people to the side of the Amarr. The head of the family acted as a diplomat to the scattered tribes, uniting them against their common foes the Udorians.

The assistance of the Khanid people was a major boon to the Empire, giving them the martial prowess to assault the Udorians relentlessly. For their aide in bringing the Khanid to the Empire's side, the Emperor made the Family the stewards of the Khanid lands and people. In a sense, the Khanid people forced the Empire's hand, as they remained warlike and difficult to control.

(emphasis added by me)