Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => EVE OOC Summit => Topic started by: Arkady Sadik on 21 Sep 2011, 03:52
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I refrained from posting the quote below on IGS because I feel it's somewhat unfair towards those who RP the Sansha storyline, but it's pretty much what my character currently thinks of this ICly.
Even FW has more effect on the game world than incursions. Not that I'm too unhappy about that - "external threats that unite former adversaries" tend to have a negative effect on the RP possibilities in the long run, so pushing the Sansha threat would in my opinion not be good for RP in EVE as a whole. But the way it is right now is quite sad.
The Nation came as a surprise and used a new and impressive technology, generating wormholes to strike wherever they like - that was unsettling. They abducted many of our people - that was horrifying. They created Sansha capsuleers - that was intimidating.
But then Kuvakei changed his strategy. He declared war on capsuleers and capsuleers alone. He did so without realizing that his petty army of maybe a dozen capsuleers is nothing compared to the free capsuleers that roam the cluster.
So, where are we today? The major anti-Nation coalitions are cooperating to keep Nation's incursions around until they start withdrawing, and then race each other to kill off the supercarrier. They could do that at any point, but they do it on the time of their choosing. If they wanted, most incursions would be defeated within a day.
I count 13 confirmed capsuleer-piloted supercarrier losses, and that's excluding the countless supercarrier losses without CONCORD confirmation. Or the even more countless carrier losses. They by now have lost more crew on their ships than they ever abducted from planets.
And what have they gained? They can jump out of the woodwork wherever they want, say "boo", and get to leave when on the us capsuleers' say-so.
I am afraid I can not see the reason to be particularly afraid of the Nation right now.
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Mhh, afraid, not more than any other pirate faction I suppose. They still have plenty of regular NPCs that lurk all around and enslave or attack regular people. Much like other pirate factions attack regular people all around the cluster.
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I would just like to point out that the main "Incursions" are just the surface or the Sansha plotline.
There have been some pretty good developments, aside form day to day incursions.
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I think the Sansha menace has a much greater impact on the empires than capsuleers. And yes, I'm aware that Nation set its target on capsuleers, but I'd make the assumption that when Nation occupies a system, not only is trade disrupted but planetary colonies are threatened, stations are in danger of being attacked, and local security forces (the stuff we can't see) probably get dispatched. So yes, I can see how this can be traumatic for people NOT capsuleers who have to live through this stuff. I say it might be the equivalent of living with air raid sirens constantly and having to worry if the boogeyman is going to come and get you.
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I've found the whole Sansha event arc something of a double edged sword; yeah, at first it was a major curveball and it can't be argued that some enjoyable, surprising RP has come of it. On the other hand, that it was in essence both a trial run of live events and a way to launch Incursion in the form imagined by non-storyline folks has been a pain in the ass. The events that didn't go quite as they 'should' have for whatever reason and the lack of a way to meaningfully support the Nation mechanically are probably good examples. Don't get me wrong -- Dropbear and Headfirst have done great so far and don't seem to be changing that; just an unfortunate byproduct of what was trying to be done that detracts from it.
That being said, Kyber(c) -- and myself as a player as a result, here -- sat down one day and took the various technological advancements that the Nation has flaunted (wormholes are the most obvious example; see also things like advanced manipulation of infomorphs) to their logical ends. He found the Nation's tactics making a lot more sense when the fields in which it has an upper hand are considered outside the context of what capsuleers see directly; whether this was foreseen by the people designing the events or just a by-product, who knows, but it can be made to make much more sense than it does from a purely OOC "killboards and live events" standpoint.
In the interest of not making myself sound like a faction fanboy -- not the intent, honest :P -- and because I'm too tired to write anything really meaty ATM, though, I'll not give any full reasoning. Kyber(c) would be pretty open about the vast majority of it if asked IC, though. vOv
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I'm not entirely certain what I should write a post directed to in this topic.
Do you want commentary on your IC post OOCly, Arkady?
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I'm not entirely certain what I should write a post directed to in this topic.
Do you want commentary on your IC post OOCly, Arkady?
I do not know what I want, so your point there is quite right :-).
This thread happened because I wrote that IC post for IGS, but before I posted it, I felt it would be bad from me. There are people who are playing the Sansha story arc (and enjoying it), and such a post felt awfully much like "lol CCP's game mechanics suck for your RP." So I didn't post it.
Which did frustrate me. Basically, the "IC logical conclusion" from all that actually has happened in-game is (for me) "Sansha is a minor issue." The storyline that has been played seems to indicate that "Sansha is a major issue." And it feels to me that I'm being asked to ignore "what happens in the game" and RP based on something I make up on my own with no backing in the game.
Which, in turn, means the Sansha RP is pretty much un-fun to me.
I guess this thread was just me going "MEH! :-("
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If the reasonable conclusion for Arkady(c) to draw is that they're a non-issue, couldn't he just then extend that to that people making a fuss over them on either side of the fence are getting worked up over nothing?
I'm not entirely sure of the issue, I'll admit.
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If the reasonable conclusion for Arkady(c) to draw is that they're a non-issue, couldn't he just then extend that to that people making a fuss over them on either side of the fence are getting worked up over nothing?
That's pretty much my IC stance now, yes. :-)
(Some of them are difficult to ignore, they actively address me, but when they do, it's their own fault for getting a reply.)
I'm not entirely sure of the issue, I'll admit.
I'm not sure I'd call it an "issue" as such. There's a (possibly cool) RP storyline that I feel I can't really participate in because I feel that the non-game-based RP in it does not really fit to the in-game activities. "Meh, that looks fun, but isn't for me" - not really an issue, more an expression of disappointment.
I suck at describing this. :-D
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Aha; that makes more sense. I've noticed that most characters run into that awkward inability to reall get involved with a storyline at some stage, though; hardly exclusive to the Sansha stuff (though with that being something pushed as a cluster-wide thing, it does happen perhaps more for it).
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Arkady, I am curious as to why you feel that plots based around "external threats that unite former adversaries" are bad. One thing that I regret is that my interaction with Imperial, Caldari and some pirate faction supporters is very limited based on current relations between the NPC groups they are affiliated with.
Having something force us to work together, even in a limited way, increases the scope for interaction. So how can that be bad.
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I'm not entirely certain what I should write a post directed to in this topic.
Do you want commentary on your IC post OOCly, Arkady?
I do not know what I want, so your point there is quite right :-).
This thread happened because I wrote that IC post for IGS, but before I posted it, I felt it would be bad from me. There are people who are playing the Sansha story arc (and enjoying it), and such a post felt awfully much like "lol CCP's game mechanics suck for your RP." So I didn't post it.
Which did frustrate me. Basically, the "IC logical conclusion" from all that actually has happened in-game is (for me) "Sansha is a minor issue." The storyline that has been played seems to indicate that "Sansha is a major issue." And it feels to me that I'm being asked to ignore "what happens in the game" and RP based on something I make up on my own with no backing in the game.
Which, in turn, means the Sansha RP is pretty much un-fun to me.
I guess this thread was just me going "MEH! :-("
ayup
I believe your issue is that the storyline says the Sansha are a big issue, when in the game the Sansha provide a 1billion ISK/day pick-up-group for free in highsec with near zero penalties to the affected constellation. What's said, versus what is seen/done. Would I be right?
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I think we should remember where the money is coming from here. It's coming from CONCORD, which is paid via taxes on the various Empires.
In effect, the Empires are only able to stave off the Sansha onslaught through being able to pay off concord, who in turn pays off us.. That's why the bounty rates in the affected systems are lowered, it's to help pay for the Incursion bounties that are handed out.
Indeed, CONCORD was largely created for this purpose, to deal with threats against astropolitical peace. The Sansha incursions are certainly the most significant threat at this point in time, the Empire wars being defused and bled dry through the pressure-valve border wars by the Capsuleer militias. It only makes sense that the large portion of their bribe money to capsuleers would keep flowing on a daily basis to that purpose. Otherwise, the Sansha would steamroll the entire area.
Which makes the next point even more significant. If the Sansha were somehow able to significantly debilitate the economic flow of materials or goods, then the tax revenues funding the Capsuleer resistance would dissipate, thereby depleting their warfleets and allowing Sansha the upperhand.
This is the most logical strategic option for Kuvakei to employ at this point in the war.
As you can see, there is a significant amount of strategic and tactical depth to the 'threat', and it's not simply the NPC wars going on, but the larger storyline and balance of power between the Rogue Factions and the Empires. All of it is in the balance, and hopefully CCP will play on this in the future.
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I believe your issue is that the storyline says the Sansha are a big issue, when in the game the Sansha provide a 1billion ISK/day pick-up-group for free in highsec with near zero penalties to the affected constellation. What's said, versus what is seen/done. Would I be right?
Roughly, yes. My biggest "wtf" actually is that the big incursion groups actively keep the incursions around until they're "withdrawing" and then quickly finish them off. That gives the whole Sansha threat the feeling of a "minor nuiscance" with which you play until you get tired of it, then simply brush it off.
Aha; that makes more sense. I've noticed that most characters run into that awkward inability to reall get involved with a storyline at some stage, though; hardly exclusive to the Sansha stuff (though with that being something pushed as a cluster-wide thing, it does happen perhaps more for it).
Oh, yes. And just to reiterate, this is primarily because of my personal preference of what I RP as. Others have different preferences.
I had a similar problem with FW ("ok, we are now AT WAR! HA HAR! ... oh, your stations can stay here, and actually, not much changes, you know") - I was able to find some kind of ICerization that works for me, but it's still awkward.
Arkady, I am curious as to why you feel that plots based around "external threats that unite former adversaries" are bad. One thing that I regret is that my interaction with Imperial, Caldari and some pirate faction supporters is very limited based on current relations between the NPC groups they are affiliated with.
Having something force us to work together, even in a limited way, increases the scope for interaction. So how can that be bad.
RP stories that are interesting to me at least is driven by conflict. There is only a very small amount of interaction you can get out of "I like you, you like me." External threats provide the big superhammer to kill any kind of conflict: "How can you think of X when we have to deal with Y?!" Which means that a big enough external threat (e.g. how Sansha is apparently treated) results, after a bit of initial awkwardness, in a situation where you have very little to RP about outside of what the external threat generates - and I would not, in general, rely on CCP to generate all the RP we can get.
Compare this to FW (there was a discussion about that in another thread). FW removed, among other things, the conflict of "pro-peace, pro-Republic vs. pro-war, anti-Republic" Minmatar loyalists. You'd think that "the war broke out!" would create more RP, but the only RP it generates is the RP CCP creates of it - whereas the pro-peace/pro-war conflict generated RP all by itself.
This is obviously not an on/off switch, but a gradual scale. My point being, the stronger the "unifying external threats" are, the fewer was of possible conflict you have, the less RP generators you have.
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I believe your issue is that the storyline says the Sansha are a big issue, when in the game the Sansha provide a 1billion ISK/day pick-up-group for free in highsec with near zero penalties to the affected constellation. What's said, versus what is seen/done. Would I be right?
Roughly, yes. My biggest "wtf" actually is that the big incursion groups actively keep the incursions around until they're "withdrawing" and then quickly finish them off. That gives the whole Sansha threat the feeling of a "minor nuiscance" with which you play until you get tired of it, then simply brush it off.
ayup, pretty much.
I didn't learn about that particular tactic until a month or two after launch. It's hilarious because the Sansha Incursions achieve whatever the fuck they're doing over the days their vat-grown fleets are killed, and when they're done the Capsuleers finally punt them out. Honestly if I wasn't banking on Kuvakei pulling a xanatos gambit (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/XanatosGambit) on that I'd be raging a lot more about the system.
While over all it may provide a corridor for a 'ahha, your avarice has proven your undoing' type of story, I doubt it makes a strong presence in the mean time. By your sentiments and others like it I have seen, most players consider the incursions a joke as far as a 'threat' is concerned. Or it's trivialized down from the galactic level threat it's generally presented as.
I have mixed feelings on the entire thing because of the potential for a xanatos ass pull. In terms of story, yes the Sansha may pull even further ahead. In terms of presentation, if the players feel the big bad is a big joke then did your story fail? I still can't decide on that.
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Ah if I had to answer ICly Arkady, Lyn would have disagreed. People keep thinking that nothing is happening, the populations are safe and all that, because uncle Sansha choosed to attack capsuleers instead. Basically, there are 3 points that makes me think this is blatantly false :
1) As I said above, regular Sansha NPCs continue to act in New Eden independantly of these incursions, and keep abducting/terrorising people all around. Any conventionnal pve mission against Sansha Nation or sansha usual NPCs in empire belts are sufficient proofs themselves.
2) As Kaleigh said, its economically a disaster.
3) Incursions only targeting capsuleers is just totally false. You just have to look at some of the incursions sites of various sizes, called "overwhelmed civilian facility", where you usually have to save abducted people and put them into an evacuation freighter.
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Arkady, I am curious as to why you feel that plots based around "external threats that unite former adversaries" are bad. One thing that I regret is that my interaction with Imperial, Caldari and some pirate faction supporters is very limited based on current relations between the NPC groups they are affiliated with.
Having something force us to work together, even in a limited way, increases the scope for interaction. So how can that be bad.
RP stories that are interesting to me at least is driven by conflict. There is only a very small amount of interaction you can get out of "I like you, you like me." External threats provide the big superhammer to kill any kind of conflict: "How can you think of X when we have to deal with Y?!" Which means that a big enough external threat (e.g. how Sansha is apparently treated) results, after a bit of initial awkwardness, in a situation where you have very little to RP about outside of what the external threat generates - and I would not, in general, rely on CCP to generate all the RP we can get.
Compare this to FW (there was a discussion about that in another thread). FW removed, among other things, the conflict of "pro-peace, pro-Republic vs. pro-war, anti-Republic" Minmatar loyalists. You'd think that "the war broke out!" would create more RP, but the only RP it generates is the RP CCP creates of it - whereas the pro-peace/pro-war conflict generated RP all by itself.
This is obviously not an on/off switch, but a gradual scale. My point being, the stronger the "unifying external threats" are, the fewer was of possible conflict you have, the less RP generators you have.
Interacting with someone is not the same as liking them. You don't have to like someone to work with them, just feel that working with them has benefits that outweigh the dislike. In much the same way you don't have to hate someone to fight them.
Also, consider if you will the inherent drama of working with people who are normally your enemies, and wondering when someone will decide that the circumstances that have caused the interaction have chaged enough for hostilities to start again.
As far as your point about FW and pro peace/pro war Minmatar groups. Now we have the people that think the current administration are wonderful and the Elders are spirit sent. And the folks who are still loyal but are more than a tad cynical about the whole thing. There are always grounds for disagreement and conflict if you look hard enough.
However. This is a tad off topic for this thread. Maybe we should start another one to explore this in a bit more depth.
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Interacting with someone is not the same as liking them.
Slight tangent: We have had some problems in EM in the past with telling people ICly that we'd find it weird if they are in EM and are best friends with hostiles (IC, of course; we have friends among the amarr OOC :-)), and then later found out that they thought we forbid them to RP with non-EMers. That was quite a "wtf" for us.
Likewise, you do not need an external threat to RP with other factions. And I thought that was the reason you liked the "big external threat" thing?
My problem is a different one, though.
"You keep slaves! This is INHUMANE of you! You should stop!"
"That might very well be, but it's irrelevant right now: THE SANSHA ARE COMING."
"You just want to bring your stupid Gallentean culture into our space. We want to be who we are."
"I'd disagree, but why the hell are you bothering about Gallentean cultural imperialism? THE SANSHA ARE COMING!"
"You attacked CONCORD and the Empire, you need to be taught a lesson!"
"Are you stupid? That happened years ago, what you are doing is just playing into the hands of the Sansha. Stop your silly antics."
Etc. etc.
That's what I meant. No matter what, all disagreements, all matters of conflict can easily be "squashed" by "BUT THE <EXTERNAL THREAT HERE> IS COMING!" The resulting RP then boils down to grumpy remarks and snipes. And at least for me, that tends to get boring rather quickly.
And again, this is not an on/off switch, but a continuum. My point being, the bigger the external (NPC) threat, the fewer the possible interactions with other players, the more dependent you are on RP from CCP/NPCs. Of course there is still some RP possible, but it's less than there was before.
As far as your point about FW and pro peace/pro war Minmatar groups. Now we have the people that think the current administration are wonderful and the Elders are spirit sent. And the folks who are still loyal but are more than a tad cynical about the whole thing.
Oh, sure. But if I compare the RP interaction I got about the earlier thing, and the RP interaction I get about the current disagreement, I have to say I'll take the old situation back any day. ;-)
There are always grounds for disagreement and conflict if you look hard enough.
Yes. But I would prefer an RP environment that makes it easier to find them, not harder.
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Incursion Sansha's have become 'farmables'. Their rate or manner of their destruction has no visible impact on the game world. They have become the equivalent of Sansha missions or Sansha belt rats: better ignored in with regards to RP storylines and development.
I don't know about other RP groups, but most RPers I talk with always speak about Sansha 'rats' in terms of income streams and resources to be harvested *IC*. I find that suggesting Sansha's are an actual threat IC often meets with some raised eyebrows or some odd IC/OOC disconnect. "Oh yeah, I almost forgot, those red crosses are actual ships menacing travelers and destroying whole colonies and space stations".
This ties into the other thread. If there is no visible effect of the Sansha (for good or for worse) on the NPC game world, then as far as the NPC world, they might as well not exist. As far as the capsuleer world is concerned, Incursion Sansha's are quickly becoming akin to agricultural products, best harvested when they are ripe, while non-Incursion Sansha's have had a produce status among capsuleers for years now.
The most dangerous Sansha-infested draw capsuleers and are defended like precious resources rather than inspiring fear, awe or something which they are supposed to inspire ICly.
I can take capsuleer Sansha supporters seriously, but I find it often difficult to take the NPC Sansha's seriously.
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The end result of players banding together to keep the incursions around for their entire week-long lifespan, while it may play into the Content team's possible plans for the story arc (ref: Ghost's joke about xanatos gambits), I sincerely doubt that it was the intention of the people designing and implementing it.
If an incursion being active caused actually noticeable detrimental effects on the constellations surrounding it (IC excuse, CONCORD/DED is focusing its attention on the Incursion constellation?) that did not decrease in severity with the influence level there might be some impetus to clear them faster. Artificial "traffic control" delays in jumping, increased timers for CONCORD response to GCC (or better yet, temporarily lowered system security ratings, say, modifier of -0.2), etc.
Morwen still considers them a threat IC, and isn't too amused by the BTL/TDF agreement, but there's very little one person can do about it in an effective manner, so she just grits her teeth and enjoys getting to put 800mm rounds through more toasters.
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Incursion Sansha's have become 'farmables'. Their rate or manner of their destruction has no visible impact on the game world. They have become the equivalent of Sansha missions or Sansha belt rats: better ignored in with regards to RP storylines and development.
I don't know about other RP groups, but most RPers I talk with always speak about Sansha 'rats' in terms of income streams and resources to be harvested *IC*. I find that suggesting Sansha's are an actual threat IC often meets with some raised eyebrows or some odd IC/OOC disconnect. "Oh yeah, I almost forgot, those red crosses are actual ships menacing travelers and destroying whole colonies and space stations".
This ties into the other thread. If there is no visible effect of the Sansha (for good or for worse) on the NPC game world, then as far as the NPC world, they might as well not exist. As far as the capsuleer world is concerned, Incursion Sansha's are quickly becoming akin to agricultural products, best harvested when they are ripe, while non-Incursion Sansha's have had a produce status among capsuleers for years now.
The most dangerous Sansha-infested draw capsuleers and are defended like precious resources rather than inspiring fear, awe or something which they are supposed to inspire ICly.
I can take capsuleer Sansha supporters seriously, but I find it often difficult to take the NPC Sansha's seriously.
The problem with this line of thinking is that we suddenly find ourselves making assumptions about NPCs based on game mechanics. None of us are worried about Sansha capturing our station and killing us before we can get into our ships because the game mechanics do not allow this to happen. Does that mean our character behavior should be dictated entirely by game mechanics? Should our characters be more concerned about them than we are, simply because we aren't perceiving them as a threat because the mechanics do not allow it?
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The problem with this line of thinking is that we suddenly find ourselves making assumptions about NPCs based on game mechanics. None of us are worried about Sansha capturing our station and killing us before we can get into our ships because the game mechanics do not allow this to happen. Does that mean our character behavior should be dictated entirely by game mechanics? Should our characters be more concerned about them than we are, simply because we aren't perceiving them as a threat because the mechanics do not allow it?
It is not a problem with the line of thinking, I don't think any RPer purposely thinks of Sansha's that way. However, the in-game reality is harsh, and we are able to resist only a certain amount of evidence to the contrary before we fall to the trap of treating them as they appear.
I've regularly tried to communicate with Sansha forces of local channels, even in missions. I've seen this only very, very rarely. People tend to only talk to Sansha's when there's an event actor around, otherwise they don't. Most likely because they know they Sansha won't respond anyway. It is hard to pretend around such realities for years. At some point you'll tend to accept the Sansha IC for what they are in-game. Non-responsive entities with limited intelligence and poor variation in strategy.
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You don't see a problem at all? Because assassins don't exist in-game, does that mean player characters should not worry about them? what about viruses? Kyonoke is supposed to be deadly, but since the virus isn't an applicable game mechanic my character should shrug it off? You see where I'm going with this?
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You don't see a problem at all? Because assassins don't exist in-game, does that mean player characters should not worry about them? what about viruses? Kyonoke is supposed to be deadly, but since the virus isn't an applicable game mechanic my character should shrug it off? You see where I'm going with this?
I don't see why you are phrasing this as a problem. I'm not suggesting or advocating a certain playstyle. I'm just making an analysis of the effects certain in-game implementations have on us RP-ers. And I'm not talking about things that don't exist, I am talking about things that do exist: the Sansha. If Sansha's, are for most intents and purposes, non-responsive harvestable resources, then it will be hard to RP them as intelligent, malign and serious threats. If you attempt to portray the Sansha NPCs at the latter in your RP, you would need to do a lot of handwaving and have a lot of awkward RP moments. If your RP treats them as dumb harvestable resources and no real threats, your RP would fit the world much better.
For example: I rarely hear capsuleers tell me (IC) that they need to counter the Sansha (or other pirate threat), they usually tell me they need to 'earn some isk'. They never express worry about the Sansha's belt pirates in nullses, they only talk about other capsuleers as threats. In addition, they mention stuff like 'chaining' and 'ratting'. Of course I can have Merdaneth pretend they aren't talking casually about Sansha threats like they are resources. It is just very difficult to maintain that RP stance when all evidence (both capsuleers talking IC, and you own in-game encounters) indicate that isn't the case.
NPC assassins are easier to imagine because they don't exist and thus no counter-evidence of their nature is available. However, because they don't exist, any assassination attempt would need approval of the involved parties to succeed. Hence it will be relatively difficult to move an assassin-centered ahead as a player
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off the top of my head, there's One sansha that I know of that says something to the player.
In the mission "rogue slave trader 2/2" there is a unique NPC, "Centum Controller" who says "An intruder! don't let him access the gate!"
I have used that Once in RP, to complain to Ghost Hunter, that Centum Controller is being mean, and suggesting I am flat chested enough to be mistaken for a man. :oops:
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The Sansha incursions have become something of a joke. There was a very dramatic sense of tension, pre-January, in how the storyline played out. I remember the sense of cooperation and unity that was going on; the race to decrypt the hidden messages, fleets being stood up hours in advance. I even got a shot as FC at one point, had two wings covering one planet and two more at another (all in the same system). It was fun.
Now though, I can't help but shake this feeling that CCP dropped incursions like a hot rock after the Incursion mechanism was rolled out on 24 January. The system is flawed, as it rewards people for doing something which does not conform to the expected RP reality, and I know people have complained to CCP about it in hopes of a change. (So far, nothing. Not even an acknowledgement of the concerns.) And it's gotten easy as well. It used to be that entire fleets getting wiped out was the norm. Now it makes headlines if you lose more than a quarter of an incursion fleet or group.
The best that RP'ers can hope for, in my opinion, is to "keep the fire burning" with regards to the backstory RP of the incursions while they hope/wait for a change or something that more directly impacts the overall storyline. In SYNE, we've taken to pulling select people (including some from outside the corporation) together and we stay in regular contact in order to at least keep a system in place for future contact. That way, we know we'll be ready to respond if/when the incursions get a little more serious, or again occupy a place on the front-burner at CCP.
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I don't see why you are phrasing this as a problem. I'm not suggesting or advocating a certain playstyle. I'm just making an analysis of the effects certain in-game implementations have on us RP-ers. And I'm not talking about things that don't exist, I am talking about things that do exist: the Sansha. If Sansha's, are for most intents and purposes, non-responsive harvestable resources, then it will be hard to RP them as intelligent, malign and serious threats. If you attempt to portray the Sansha NPCs at the latter in your RP, you would need to do a lot of handwaving and have a lot of awkward RP moments. If your RP treats them as dumb harvestable resources and no real threats, your RP would fit the world much better.
It presents a continuity dilemma in a roleplay environment. This has nothing to do with play style.
Agent: "The Sansha are planning an invasion of the system. I need you to take care of it for us."
Player: "Nah, it's cool. They don't show up until I do and they don't leave the deadspace pocket."
...because the mission mechanics do not allow the npcs to do so. This is an example of a false illustration of how a faction can be mis-characterized based on game mechanics.
Meanwhile, in the Coalition war room, pilots and generals gather around to formulate a plan to repel the incoming Sansha invasion...
General: "I'm going to distribute forces at key locations on the station in preparation for their boarding parties."
Pilot: "Don't worry about it. The Sansha never attack stations. They only attack pilots and sometimes limit services in the station."
General: "What about infiltration, sabotage? We should prepare for-"
Pilot: "They don't do that either. Infact, just grab a drink and let us take care of it."
One of the key points of roleplay is adding a level of immersion to ones game play. What's the point of doing so if the universe consists solely of what game-play mechanics allow? Are there assassins, saboteurs, double-agents? Since we only look at game mechanics as a measure of our world, does that mean there's no station interior beyond our rooms? In my opinion, denying the full capability of a faction (were it a real entity) and simply perceiving it based on an artificial intelligence and gameplay mechanics ignores a fundamental concept behind roleplay- that there's more to a world than what we're allowed to interact with.
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In my opinion, denying the full capability of a faction (were it a real entity) and simply perceiving it based on an artificial intelligence and gameplay mechanics ignores a fundamental concept behind roleplay- that there's more to a world than what we're allowed to interact with.
doesn't that then mean that the players preference for keeping incursions around to farm, means the Incursions are largely succeeding in their objectives, a bit like Ghost said?
I mean, the players are giving Nation a whole week to do their Stuff, and all.
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One of the key points of roleplay is adding a level of immersion to ones game play. What's the point of doing so if the universe consists solely of what game-play mechanics allow? Are there assassins, saboteurs, double-agents? Since we only look at game mechanics as a measure of our world, does that mean there's no station interior beyond our rooms? In my opinion, denying the full capability of a faction (were it a real entity) and simply perceiving it based on an artificial intelligence and gameplay mechanics ignores a fundamental concept behind roleplay- that there's more to a world than what we're allowed to interact with.
I'm not arguing against this immersive approach at all. In fact, I favor it. I'm merely saying that if you have a male actor play a female role, then it gets harder for fellow players to react to the actor as if he were a female.
If Sansha appear in most aspects as farmables, then it will be harder for players to respond to them as dangerous intelligences. I'm not advocating that we should respond to them as farmables, I'm saying that if it acts like a duck, quacks like a duck and looks like a duck, its hard to immerse yourself in such a manner that you aren't treating it as a duck.
Again, do not confuse my analysis with being an advocate of a certain approach to RP. I'm in favor of having game mechanics either simulate stuff in such a way that you aren't presented with contrary evidence, or have the fiction back up the in-game reality.
Drones, for example, are much less a problem for me IC. They are alien intelligences, going about their jobs for unfathomable reasons. I'm not suprised if they suicide wave after wave into my ship. It is very hard for me to maintain my immersion/suspension of disbelief as wave after wave of Sansha suicide themselves, not warping off while in structure and not having a point on them. If my character has to act in-line with PF, he has to disregard or handwave a huge number of in-game Sansha facts. For proper immersion, my character has to lie and disbelieve what he perceives in-game. That sucks.
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doesn't that then mean that the players preference for keeping incursions around to farm, means the Incursions are largely succeeding in their objectives, a bit like Ghost said?
I mean, the players are giving Nation a whole week to do their Stuff, and all.
Or that the Sansha have infiltrated Concord and have influenced them to setup improper reward mechanisms that motivate capsuleers to stretch out Incursions for a long as possible.
As for the Sansha themselves, I have no idea if the current losses are justified for reaching their goals, because I don't know their goals. I just feel that their current strategy, while initially surprising, has been analyzed and largely neutralized by capsuleers.
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Disclaimer: Just brainstorming for most of this post. I realise that no-one here can change things directly, but maybe there's a few CCPers reading. Meh.
If the problems related to the game-mechanic boil down to:
- The Incursions are too easy.
- The Incursions are being farmed for lengthy periods until the status switches to 'withdrawing'.
... why not change the way the mechanic plays out?
For example, instead of a fixed system-wide penalty to defense/attack/trade/whatever why not have a penalty that increases in an exponential fashion dependent on how long the incursion continues? Start things off 'simple' and then, after a random period of time, have things start to get more difficult, then rapidly really difficult, then near impossible. And then entirely toxic.
Borrowing from Soter's theory that the huge bounties come from increased taxes applied by the Empires to their system populations, the increased penalties could be coupled with worsening bounty values (as those populations are bled dry), using the same exponentially decreasing scale. Potentially this would not only make prolonging an incursion an increasingly risky proposition but also a financially unsound one as well.
Finally, CONCORD could enact temporary changes to security ratings within constellations suffering through an extended incursion - perhaps dropping highsec systems into a lowsec range for a period of time, or lowsec systems into nullsec. Not sure if that can be done with existing mechanics, but it make for interesting dynamics if it could. It'd also allow pro-Sansha capsuleers to get involved, I think.
There's undoubtedly holes wide enough to fly a titan through in all of these ideas. I'll leave it to people more experienced with game theory and design than me to highlight them. :)
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Alright, lets see if I can do this
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Incursion, from my understanding that developers may see it as:
Incursion's design principle was to offer public/private player pick up groups for raid-like PVE content. As a PVE expansion, it focuses near exclusively on the new PVE content its introducing so that it's solid for consumption. Make it profitable and fun for people to do with friends or strangers.
Incursion is deployed and players are initially baffled at the seemingly advanced AI logic and :fuckhard: NPCs. Players adapt, map out the AI logic and new ship types, and create the perfect builds for Incursion content. Incursion difficulty plummets as player understanding increases, significant ship losses to any extent are now a result of pilot error rather than NPC trickery.
Incursion system remains relatively unchanged aside from balancing to the system-wide influence levels. High sec incursions are farmed to the maximum length possible, providing wormhole-level ISK income in the safety of high sec. Low sec incursions see some activity from groups after the supercapital BPC, but are relatively ignored compared to high sec. Null sec incursions are generally only bothered when they arrive in the home systems of an alliance.
Design principle achieved: Incursions are used in player pick up groups as an alternatively fun ISK income mechanic, enjoying new content and different challenges. Incursion difficulty and ISK reward ratio may be skewed and in need of review: see wormhole-level ISK income in high security for near zero credible risk. There is a chance this may deincentivize the Incursion mechanic and thus undo achieving the design principle. Change is dangerous.
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Incursion, from my understanding on how roleplayers may see it as:
Big Bad villain's storyline build up has hit a crescendo, and the Big Bad has unleashed its army upon the galaxy. Despair and terror as people race to meet the challenge.
Initial battles are confusing and dangerous as heroes fight the Big Bad's army for the first time. Enormous casualties on the heroes side, Big Bad sometimes repelled in the first series of battles. Heroes adapt, understand new Big Bad mechanics, and go at it again. Big Bad threat drops significantly as heroes understand what to do and what not to do. Big Bad remains unchanged in stark contrast to the build up period, where the Big Bad adapted to tactics with some regularity.
Heroes fight the Big Bad again and again, becoming better at fighting the new and unchanging army. Exact methods on how to counter every specific aspect of the Big Bad's army emerges, reducing the threat to almost child's play levels. Big Bad stops being a credible threat in the players' mind when the Big Bad's army turns into a resource farm, rather than a great enemy. There are those who are concerned about the Big Bad's influence on the civilian populations, but they are a minority.
The players behind the Heroes become disillusioned with the Big Bad when it remains a static, farmed enemy. Players no longer consider it a threat seriously, even though it is taken as one in the Heroes world. Apathy sets in and players adopt the general mindset that it's not worth while treating a farm mechanic as a serious threat, outside of mockery. Previous atmosphere of tension and danger from the build up phase dissipates entirely, leaving storyline impressions unexciting as anything other than 'just another day'.
Players begin to look into other areas for their tension packed battles and storyline, despite the fact the Heroes' world consider the Big Bad a mega threat. Dissonance begins to set in as players find ways to excuse their Heroes from involvement in the Big Bad, and non-roleplayer players become the majority involved in fighting the Big Bad. Some players remain in the conflict with their Heroes, but a large portion have removed themselves entirely from storyline interaction.
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Incursion is, I think, from a developers' perspective a rather large success. CSM leaders also agree with this notion, and have cited Incursion as a positive feature that should be expanded upon. As a consequence, the design principle of Incursion succeeded and one could argue the developers' as a whole are pleased with it. The vast majority of their consumers either enjoy it or are of no negative opinion.
Then there is the roleplayers, us, who each hold negative opinions of Incursion for one way or another. We think it's too easy, too dumb downed, too farmable, etcetra. Our concerns all rest in the communal pool of storyline presentation represented in game mechanics. The fantasy world we live in has had its serious disposition slapped silly because the game mechanics presenting it are not consistent with the fantasy. If we, as players, cannot feel a credible atmosphere of tension and danger it is hard for most to translate that in character.
As a social group in the game, roleplayers are at the very bottom of the ladder. We have the capacity to exercise influence in the games' storyline when it is solely the storyline in question. When game mechanics are deployed, in either a global or minor scale, we are not part of the design process. One of the examples I have currently is the fact many have told me (on both sides of the conflict) they feel Big Bad supporters should be able to help 'officially' or through mechanics.
I like the idea, I really do. The truth is that Big Bad supporters are so small in number, that even looking at them with new mechanics for them is a ridiculous notion. You could argue that putting in mechanics to draw in more Big Bad supporters would be the ideal way, but it conflicts with the design principle. Incursion was designed to be PVE almost exclusively. No mechanics were introduced to enable PVP of any nature specific to itself. The only choice you have is the pre-existing system, which has no special modifications related to Incursion.
Consequentially, we have arrived in full circle back to the root issue. We are not part of the design process, and anything that may benefit us is by design most likely intended for the greater community. The particulars of what we enjoy about our involvement may or may not suffer as the developers add or modify game content. Incursion is not a representation of the great conflict going on in the game storyline. It is a PVE expansion designed to add new group content to the game, and the storyline has only modified what the generic NPCs and site environments look like.
Developers for the storyline may or may not feel Incursion has adequately represented the storyline's conflict, however. It may have provided exactly what they were looking for, or it may not have. In this respect, perhaps there are some in the development process who are not happy with how Incursion was designed. Regardless of internal opinions, however, there is evident discontent in the roleplayer community with Incursion's storyline.
tl;dr developers win, animality
edit; sentence clarification
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Great post Ghost.
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Very good post, yes.
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\o/
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Good post, Ghost. I would myself put the emphasis on the roleplayer syndrome when the "Big Bad" becomes the "Big Bad Laughting Stock of New Eden" (well, I am overexagerating on purpose, don't take it personnally :p). Which made me come to a new idea : in the roleplay world, when events tend to linger, it eventually becomes tasteless or overused. And, my conclusion is that the main issue ICly of this Sansha storyline is its epicness.
Why ?
Because basically, you have two rules to my eyes :
- The first one I stated above : the more a RP event linger or lasts long, the more it becomes repeatitive and... unchallenging. Thus, boring. It is not totally true, though (cf my second point).
- The second one : the more a RP event is epic, the faster it tends to get tasteless. It is the same thing in every narrative process : events with lower intensity usually can last longer, stretch themselves over the timeline or just be a background storyline. But when you put such a big drama and intensity behind an event, like it is the case with Sansha the big bad invading the galaxy with countless zombies and an unknown advanced tech (and all), it is in itself what we call a climax. And a climax does not last long for the sake of the storyline's sanity. If everything stays epic forever, the whole narration gets totally dull and even more, tends to turn ludicrous. It would be the exact same thing if in cinema a movie would be constituted only of close-up shots. Damn dull, you lose the power of the shots in question after 2 or 3 of them.
=> Very epic things HAVE TO BE the shorter possible. But powerful but less intense storylines can be long, especially in the background. This is why I would like to see other pirate factions doing incursions, but not with such a dramatic setup.
Edit : which makes me think there is also something else. Everytime CCP went for "full epicness", it was for Empyrean Age for example. It tends to simplify a little to much storylines if badly handled. Everything gets less complex and in the case of Sansha, instead of having multiple factions and sub factions, you basically end up with 2 sides.
- The Incursions are too easy.
I agree with the rest, but I don't think Incursions are too easy. I do not know the current statistics, but iirc a lot of ships, including logistics ships are usually wtfpwned in incursions. Not when they are perfectly handled ofc, but are we asking that even in these cases, players have nevertheless to go in shiney blue explosions everywhere even if they did everything correctly ? And also, its almost the case in Kundalini Manifest sites from what I have seen, logistics tend to be one or two shot by the fighter bombers + remote ECM burst combination.
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Incursion is, I think, from a developers' perspective a rather large success.
Yup, that's the crux of it. Roleplayers are the minority and their ability to influence anything in game design due to that fact is also minimal.
In addition, it's hard to combine storyline with PvE content - that's true in any MMO. There's only so many IC justifications and explanations you can make for why there's 20000 copies of Krull's DNA in your hangar or why he continually seems to pop back up in the same mission from your agent even when you've blasted his ship to space dust multiple times that day.
PvP seems to be where the storytelling in EVE happens.
- The Incursions are too easy.
I agree with the rest, but I don't think Incursions are too easy.
It's not my personal opinion that incursions are too easy - I should have made that clearer. More a fast/loose summary of some of the thoughts in posts I'd read in the preceeding two pages. :) From what I've heard, logistics do tend to get the short and pointy end of the stick as you've suggested.
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But yeah, maybe they are little too easy in the sense they are predictable. Like in WHs, and like in missions, thats always the same sites with the same ship composition inside, with the same triggers and the same everything. This is mostly what makes people farm them like that. Now imagine what they would be like if the stuff inside was variable, but still controlled to meet the DPS/whatever requirements of each site size.
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- The second one : the more a RP event is epic, the faster it tends to get tasteless.
This, this and this.
Edit : which makes me think there is also something else. Everytime CCP went for "full epicness", it was for Empyrean Age for example. It tends to simplify a little to much storylines if badly handled. Everything gets less complex and in the case of Sansha, instead of having multiple factions and sub factions, you basically end up with 2 sides.
This! THIS!
Er. To add a bit of content to this post:
It would be quite possible to "fix" the Sansha story arc without changing current incursion mechanics. You just need to bring the story to a logical conclusion where the Sansha end up being one of many threats - maybe the biggest threat of all the NPC pirate factions, but not "THE ONE HUGE BIG THREAT." That settles the RP storyline and keeps the current mechanics around.
I would prefer if the incursion mechanic would operate slightly differently than now, though. Specifically, make it so that constellation control does not diminish anymore after it's up, and also make it so that once it hits 100%, all sites but the mothership site vanish. This might need a bit of tweaking of exact underlying numbers still, but it would remove the "we'll wait until they're leaving" kind of silly gameplay.
Oh, and make it so that there is (at least) one incursion in each faction's space. It's incredibly annoying having a month of incursions in Amarr space where you can't go to, and then luckily one incursion only 30 jumps away in the Federation. <.<
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I have to admit that considering the sheer size of the Amarr Empire (and pets), Incursions tend logically to drop more often in there...
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I would prefer if the incursion mechanic would operate slightly differently than now, though. Specifically, make it so that constellation control does not diminish anymore after it's up, and also make it so that once it hits 100%, all sites but the mothership site vanish. This might need a bit of tweaking of exact underlying numbers still, but it would remove the "we'll wait until they're leaving" kind of silly gameplay.
That's a neat idea. Or maybe tweak the numbers so that once the mothership is out, the profitability of the other sites drops off like a brick. It'll still give non-mothership capable fleets something to do while encouraging the more powerful fleets to clear it and move on.
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ayup, pretty much.
I didn't learn about that particular tactic until a month or two after launch. It's hilarious because the Sansha Incursions achieve whatever the fuck they're doing over the days their vat-grown fleets are killed, and when they're done the Capsuleers finally punt them out.
THIS ^^
This is, and has, since they began it, been my biggest issue with the current non-RP incursion running fleets.
Their response to IC requests that people assault the Revenant before their chosen time (started at 'mobilising' and has recently changed to 'withdrawing') is to either temporarily or permanently ban the character from the channel(s)
or to say that taking down the revenants as quickly as possible A) hurts people's isk making, and B) is against what CCP want for incursions... both points i feel have no place on the battlefield.
A) it's not about ISK. it's about war.
B) if CCP want to extend the incursions, let CCP fix it, don't force everyone to deal with incursions that last a week instead of a few hours.
fortunately the characters who have tried in the past to justify the farming IC have mostly fallen silent now, but the farming continues, and imho, it's going to continue until CCP either change the way incursions work, or end the story arc.
it's somewhat irritating how many people left the RP element of the story arc as soon as it became more profitable to do things in an OOC manner. and how many non-RP'ers left low/null to come do highsec incursions because it was better isk than they were making ratting, and safer.
all that said, it was CCP's first attempt at making the incursion mechanic work, and it almost worked. for the first couple of months, while the primary place people were gathering to fight nation was an IC channel (SYNEPublic) ...
as ever though, things changed, OOC channels began to appear, and people left the RP aspect behind as the live events tailed off the first time.
fast forward to the second batch of live events, and the fleets that once numbered in the hundreds that used to form to expel actor led incursions, dwindled to 50-80 pilots, and that's on a good day.
**sigh**
let us hope that CCP learn from this farce. making the incursions as profitable as they are, made them exceedingly popular, and they are less risky now than nullsec ratting, as people have learned how they work, and countered the threat.
currently, my best suggestion, make them withdraw in 2-3 days instead of a week, or make the number of sites that spawn slowly drop off after the revenant appears. this will in the end mean that both sides of the coin (RP 'kill sansha' and OOC 'moar isk pls') get some degree of what they want.
TL:DR
imho, incursions are broken, and the sooner the sansha arc ends, the better for the game as a whole.
also: EvE is an MMORPG... why do so many people ignore those last 3 letters. :bash:
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There's been some recent drama over one of the main incursion FCs "going rogue" and popping Moms as soon as they show up, generally pissing everyone off. Has anyone heard if there's an IC motivation behind that or if it's just one guy being a dick?
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There's been some recent drama over one of the main incursion FCs "going rogue" and popping Moms as soon as they show up, generally pissing everyone off. Has anyone heard if there's an IC motivation behind that or if it's just one guy being a dick?
I can assure you that was very much OOC drama. There was nothing roleplaying about it, though the thought may have crossed his mind as a 'lol' moment.
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Most roleplay conflict is very much OOC drama. ;)
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There's been some recent drama over one of the main incursion FCs "going rogue" and popping Moms as soon as they show up, generally pissing everyone off. Has anyone heard if there's an IC motivation behind that or if it's just one guy being a dick?
I can assure you that was very much OOC drama. There was nothing roleplaying about it, though the thought may have crossed his mind as a 'lol' moment.
There definitely wasn't any RP motivation. I only ever see a tiny handful of RPers - in this case, people who consider themselves such; I'm not getting into the whole "EVERYTHING IN SPACE IS IC" argument here - in the bigger x-up channels, so I'm not even sure the thought crossed his mind.
This was done purely as an "I'm bored, so I'm gonna go fuck with people" thing.
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also: EvE is an MMORPG... why do so many people ignore those last 3 letters. :bash:
I was pretty sure actually that CCP defined Eve as a MMO Game when it started. But I may be wrong.
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TL:DR
imho, incursions are broken, and the sooner the sansha arc ends, the better for the game as a whole.
also: EvE is an MMORPG... why do so many people ignore those last 3 letters. :bash:
As an RPer, I agree it has devalued the storyline due to stagnation.
As a player, I generally regard Incursions as a huge success for CCP. The only downside is the ISK ratio has eclipsed nearly every thing else for pick up play, and that could use some balancing. That issue is only particular to high sec, however.
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Most eve players don't know what roleplaying is, and aren't aware it exists.
This fact has been true for the last decade, and it is true now, and it will be true in the future.
I started playing the game never having RP'ed before, and wasn't intending to RP in any way. Then, got looped into this corporation called "STRIX" that was "Supporting the Federation".
The rest is history. :P