Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => CCP Public Library => Topic started by: Kybernetes Moros on 29 Jun 2011, 16:20
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N.B.: this is not a urdoinitrong; I'm not trying to say "capsuleers must be above age x" or anything like that. Just curious as to others' thoughts on the matter.
I've noticed recently that the lower bound for capsuleer ages seems to be decreasing, or, at least, I'm becoming increasingly aware of younger capsuleers, down into their teens in a few cases. I was always under the impression that, with the combination of training (which is already a thread unto itself), the nature of being a capsuleer (killing thousands in a space of seconds, say) and the fact that cybernetic implantation wouldn't likely agree very much with a body that's growing, candidates would at least have to be fully grown before starting capsuleer training.
What do others think on this? Where would you place the lower bound on 'typically' being able to start becoming a capsuleer, discounting, of course, whatever shiny mitigating factors that might cause it to happen earlier?
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Worth noting in the new canon to be coming™, all Capsuleers are cloned before leaving school. Ergo, no more first pod = original body shenanigans.
It's entirely possible that the cloned body does not age or grow, and has very finite limitations in order to match the template it's based on. Net result is, teen capsuleers who do not outgrow their implants - at least as far as their body is concerned.
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Yeah, I'm noticing the teen capsuleers too...I try not to pay much attention and just let them get on with it, even if I disagree with it. There's all sorts of silly things, far worse silly things, that go on in the Summit anyway.
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In Warhammer 40k lore, it's mentioned that implantation of Space Marines begins when the marine enters puberty and continues all the way until their twenties. I don't know how medically accurate this is, but the reasoning is that during this stage of life, the body is more apt to accept and grow into the new organs and implants than if the marine were fully grown already.
In my opinion, a younger capsuleer may not be able to meet the physical or mental demands of training, but would possibly be more successful regarding the medical changes?
Either way, I have serious doubts that anything short of a child prodigy could survive (let alone graduate) the training regimen the way PF refers to it. A young teenager would have a difficult time finishing a four year degree in college or modern military training, and I believe Capsuleer training is much worse, as I've mentioned in my other threads.
Not saying it can't be done. Just saying it's highly unlikely.
Just a thought.
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Worth noting in the new canon to be coming™, all Capsuleers are cloned before leaving school. Ergo, no more first pod = original body shenanigans.
Well damn if that doesn't turn Jack's story inside out. Oh well.
Astronauts are generally in their thirties, if I recall correctly, with the youngest being around a quarter of a century old. I imagine that this would be the youngest a person could reasonably expect to become a pod pilot. Even disregarding peak physical fitness, it would be unwise to put tweenagers in a pod for myriad psychiatric reasons. No offense to tweenagers (I just turned 26), but brains (and more importantly, minds) are just not fully developed yet at that point.
As far as the teenage pod pilots I've seen, I give them about as much creedence as I do Jovian pod pilots. The concept itself is conceivable in some sort of Ender Wiggin-ish context, but every such character I have seen has been played such naivety, silliness, and/or dependence as to be laughable.
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Worth noting in the new canon to be coming™, all Capsuleers are cloned before leaving school. Ergo, no more first pod = original body shenanigans.
Well damn if that doesn't turn Jack's story inside out. Oh well.
Astronauts are generally in their thirties, if I recall correctly, with the youngest being around a quarter of a century old. I imagine that this would be the youngest a person could reasonably expect to become a pod pilot. Even disregarding peak physical fitness, it would be unwise to put tweenagers in a pod for myriad psychiatric reasons. No offense to tweenagers (I just turned 26), but brains (and more importantly, minds) are just not fully developed yet at that point.
As far as the teenage pod pilots I've seen, I give them about as much creedence as I do Jovian pod pilots. The concept itself is conceivable in some sort of Ender Wiggin-ish context, but every such character I have seen has been played such naivety, silliness, and/or dependence as to be laughable.
Well, Katrina is in her mid twenties. I think that's a good average range for a Caldari citizen, considering the extreme emphasis they place on everything including proper education. Slacking off in school or 'lightening the load' for a student would be unacceptable I think. Maximum efficiency.
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Worth noting in the new canon to be coming™, all Capsuleers are cloned before leaving school. Ergo, no more first pod = original body shenanigans.
Well damn if that doesn't turn Jack's story inside out. Oh well.
Astronauts are generally in their thirties, if I recall correctly, with the youngest being around a quarter of a century old. I imagine that this would be the youngest a person could reasonably expect to become a pod pilot. Even disregarding peak physical fitness, it would be unwise to put tweenagers in a pod for myriad psychiatric reasons. No offense to tweenagers (I just turned 26), but brains (and more importantly, minds) are just not fully developed yet at that point.
As far as the teenage pod pilots I've seen, I give them about as much creedence as I do Jovian pod pilots. The concept itself is conceivable in some sort of Ender Wiggin-ish context, but every such character I have seen has been played such naivety, silliness, and/or dependence as to be laughable.
Well, Katrina is in her mid twenties. I think that's a good average range for a Caldari citizen, considering the extreme emphasis they place on everything including proper education. Slacking off in school or 'lightening the load' for a student would be unacceptable I think. Maximum efficiency.
Mid-twenties is perfectly believable, as far as I am concerned. I think that anything below 22 or so is pushing it, though, in terms of realism. That said, people like to play young characters...and fun always has to trump realism since this is supposed to be enjoyable and all. Hormonal teenagers as pod pilots just goes beyond my willingness to play along. :)
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When you consider the psychological effects being a pod-pilot has on a fully grown and matured adult, I'd say "hormonal" is playing it light. If the teenage pod pilot were downright psychotic, now THAT would be believable. Let's see some 'failed' teen eggers! The ones who lost a good portion of their sanity. :D
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The ones who lost a good portion of their sanity. :D
/me points toward CAOD
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Yeah, the main reason I was curious is because, as HCJ said, some of the characters go waaay below what I find believable. Not saying they're wrong, ofc., but for immersion's sake I find it better to quietly look the other way and not play along there -- especially with what HCJ said about said characters often being (IMO) excessively naive, silly, or what have you.
FWIW, the New Canon To Come is something that's changed since the capsule was released -- the original body wasn't destroyed in capsuleer training until very recently.
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On another note... what sorts of upper limits can we place on Capsuleer age?
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With regards to upper limits... capsuleers can exist as capsuleers for extreme amounts of time; Alexander Noir was about 200 years old when the Malkalen incident happened. If you're asking how far in aging someone can initially become a capsuleer, I would assume much of it has to do with how much of their neural net has degraded, so... would vary.
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Worth noting in the new canon to be coming™, all Capsuleers are cloned before leaving school. Ergo, no more first pod = original body shenanigans.
Well damn if that doesn't turn Jack's story inside out. Oh well.
I believe the CCP dudes described in such a way that this is how new generation Capsuleer training will be done. As always, options is a thing, but this is the baseline they will most likely use as far as the medical concerns / future content is concerned.
Ghost still has his original body, for instance, so.
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With regards to upper limits... capsuleers can exist as capsuleers for extreme amounts of time; Alexander Noir was about 200 years old when the Malkalen incident happened. If you're asking how far in aging someone can initially become a capsuleer, I would assume much of it has to do with how much of their neural net has degraded, so... would vary.
Yes, Noir was pushing 200. Some Amarr Emperors got close to 400, but were in a very extreme state of decrepitute. Both had reached that age due to implants and cybernetics. Capsuleer tech has only been around for about 10 years game time? So you might find the occasional over-200 pilot running around among the rich and famous, but I'd say they'd be rare. Most I'd say would be in the 25-60 range.
Agreed though. I'd say finding an under-20 in a pod should be equally rare.
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I gotta say, I was legitimately surprised by the fact that Nikita, at 28, was on the high end for capsuleers.
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Well, our characters are all first-generation capsuleer-clones from 105. I doubt they'd be getting older people to become capsuleers.
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Well, our characters are all first-generation capsuleer-clones from 105. I doubt they'd be getting older people to become capsuleers.
It's very possible, I think, given consideration of how more experienced implant users may more easily accept Capsule implants. Some of the Capsuleer training, for instance, may be focusing on people who have never had extensive cybernetic modification in their lives.
I'm generally pleased when there are >70 year old Capsuleers around, as fuckold age is not really explored that well in main EVE canon. We know it's possible, and some people were, but it seems to take a backseat.
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Yoshito is in his late-30s, having originally went to school to become a trader (following in his dad's footsteps) before becoming dissatisfied with the life and enrolling in the Royal Amarr Academy.
I think the young capsuleer ages are somewhat silly. In general, I ascribe to the view that capsuleer training is a lot like going to a military academy or at least other institution of higher learning. I think most people making themselves 16-year-old capsuleers are suffering from Final Fantasy syndrome and just think it's cool to have really young characters. I've yet to actually see anyone RP a character still going through puberty, though.
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Merahl is nearly 50, having initially tested when being a capsuleer was risky, deciding against it, having a career and a family, and then cloning was introduced, making the idea more acceptable. As far as aging in Eve is concerned, I see him as being not quite middle-aged.
Consider that with today's technology more people are living into their 100s, and that most of us born in the latter third of last century can likely expect to live well past that. Having an unaugmented person in Eve, provided they had access to good medical facilities and a healthy lifestyle from infancy, live to 150 is not unfeasible. In terms of capsuleer qualifications, I think there would be more concern regarding an advanced adult's state of mind than over their physical age. People tend to be set solidly into their ways by the age of 50 or so.
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I'm very wary about even replying to this, because as well intentioned as the OP is I think this is dissolving quickly into a "people who play x are drama ponies" or whatever the derogatory phrase of the day is. For me, the limit is 18.
Why? I find it difficult, given the world i live in now as a point of reference, to imagine underage kids are flying ridiculously powerful weapons capable of tremendous destruction. The military doesn't let you in until you're eighteen here in the USA. You can't drive without severe restrictions until you're 18 or so (you can drive younger but with permits and restrictions). In our world, you're an adult at eighteen. I find it difficult any organization would trust such hardware to underage teens.
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I'm very wary about even replying to this, because as well intentioned as the OP is I think this is dissolving quickly into a "people who play x are drama ponies" or whatever the derogatory phrase of the day is. For me, the limit is 18.
Why? I find it difficult, given the world i live in now as a point of reference, to imagine underage kids are flying ridiculously powerful weapons capable of tremendous destruction. The military doesn't let you in until you're eighteen here in the USA. You can't drive without severe restrictions until you're 18 or so (you can drive younger but with permits and restrictions). In our world, you're an adult at eighteen. I find it difficult any organization would trust such hardware to underage teens.
I think that it's worth noting that general ideas concerning adulthood vary (sometimes greatly) across time and cultures. The military may not take younger people in now, but there have been a large number of pre-18 teenagers to serve in the United States armed forces. The four big countries in EVE, and the specific ethnic groups within them, are going to have their own view of adulthood which may or may not neatly line up with any real world nation's point of view.
That said, I largely agree. I think that the majority of capsuleers would naturally fall between mid twenties to the early forties, mostly due to education and economic constraints. However, I think that the Amarr and Minmatar might be inclined to have younger capsuleers. The Minmatar would be motivated to push younger people through the program because every additional Minmatar capsuleer is a potential safeguard against Amarrian aggression. I can see the Amarr letting younger capsuleers go into space mostly because I can see their idea of adulthood, like everything else, being more rooted in medieval feudal tradition.
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This point makes me somewhat mitigated. As far as I am concerned, I do not mind to see people play young characters if they play them well. Add to it that capsuleers are a very recent thing, and as it is highly probable to see mindlock tests and capsukle compatibility detection done on the young people in the academies and schools in the first place, more mechanically than looking into the aging population that has already a job (usually).
Though in the case of credibility and coherence of the PF/background, I usually disapprove. I am myself playing a character very close to the limit (out of the academy at 19), when I considered several years ago that like IRL you can perfectly enter military academies before your majority, though you are graduated after ofc, and enter into service after, again. What can also go in favor of young characters is that every capsuleer is described in the PF to be considered by the empires as a source of great pride and they try to train as much as possible of them for their prestige. That in mind, it is not surprising they could push the limits and try to train people the soonest possible. But not to the point of training teenagers. The youngest I have seen is around 15-16 ingame, which means if we take into consideration the years of training, it would mean that they started at what ? 12-13 ? Without even counting a more standard training before ?
But teenagers, not a big fan of it, for all the reasons already expressed above.
Worth noting in the new canon to be coming™, all Capsuleers are cloned before leaving school. Ergo, no more first pod = original body shenanigans.
Ok, but what do they do with the original body ? They give it to uncle Sansha ? :p
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Ghost still has his original body, for instance, so.
You've never been podded? o.O
As for the topic, GoGo was very young when she was made into a capsuleer and while the idea of the "first introductory podding" didn't exist at the time, I like it so much that I'm definitely incorporating it into her backstory.
Now, what exactly constitutes "very young" for me? 19-21 perhaps. So, that was 7 years ago and she has had that many years to accumulate new experiences, has experienced death several times, but her body hasn't changed (naturally) much at all. Not exactly a normal just under 30 year old then. Take that you anti post-humanists!
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Ghost still has his original body, for instance, so.
You've never been podded? o.O
I have always felt how the existence of jump clones made an odd situation of you living your life outside of the body you were born with.
Jowen has been podded once, but he was in his jump clone without the expensive implants, so technically he is still in his real "self".
Myyona has never been podded (though having spend hours harvesting gas in low sec) but it is an essential part of her persona that she is living in a jump clone body while the original one is stored in a medical facility.
The ages of my characters wary a lot. I also have to add the time since they became active pilots (have been playing EVE too long). I am thinking Myyona and Jowen around my own age (late twenties, early thirdies), while I try to portrait Natelia as very young (early twenties) and still having some of the teenage traits such as naivety, egocentric behavior and fascination of pop culture. Sviw is an older lady (in her fifties) with a calm but also cold and calculating attitude. I had troubles making her appearance as Deitis female as old as I wanted.
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Might be worth noting that, over the centuries, the age of majority has gone up, not down. No more preteen midshipmen in imperial navies, or preteen university students.
The "traditional" subcultures found amongst all four factions will not tolerate children trying to be more mature than they are. Even in the Federation, I imagine that enough conservative pressure is applied on the government to never let the age of recruitment into the military drop any lower than 16-18. The Gallenteans have "high moral standards" when it comes to institutional affairs, never mind what they might do in their social lives.
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And not to mention, that's the starting age. This dips into the training discussion, but I imagine piloting a starship probably takes a few years.
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Yeah, the main reason I was curious is because, as HCJ said, some of the characters go waaay below what I find believable. Not saying they're wrong, ofc., but for immersion's sake I find it better to quietly look the other way and not play along there -- especially with what HCJ said about said characters often being (IMO) excessively naive, silly, or what have you.
FWIW, the New Canon To Come is something that's changed since the capsule was released -- the original body wasn't destroyed in capsuleer training until very recently.
Yeah, this. (including the lack of urdoinitwrong) Gottii is in his mid-40s, which seemed youngish for a captain and gave me a decent amount of pre-capsuleer life span to work on his history.
For me its just hard to get my brain around the idea of finding and screening a 12 -16 yr old girl or boy and start training them to control an intergalatic warship. I mean, a lot of your screening criteria would be hard to use. Physically, still growing. Intelligence wise, the same. Psychologically, it would be flat out impossible to gauge a candidate's tendencies at that point, because they're very much in flux. (would explain why capsuleers grow up thinking they're just spaceships thought, they never had a chance to actually live as a person)
Also, it kinda gimps a character's backstory a bit. Almost their entire life would be spent as a capsuleer, and being that young when they get taken into the program would mean that they lack a history, or at least it limits the available options.
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In Matari culture adulthood comes with the rite of passage of the Voluval ceremony. I've played that in my clan this commonly occurs for batches of candidates who are roughly 13-15. If it's going to affect the course of your life and training, I think that -- by preference -- it has to happen early enough to have an impact. In my Sebiestor clan that's as much about keeping studying maths and genetics, or about being introduced to all the important people in the neighbouring and associated clans, as it is about physical growth and prowess. I'm fairly sure I've heard of other clans which usually do the Voluval later, and many of the Returned might not have it until much later. It's a big cluster and I'm sure there's variety.
That's different to implant work, though. I do get twitchy about the idea of applying the amount of work that seems to have gone into our spines alone to people while they're still physically growing, but the new pod-training regime means there's no need to do such work on a "natural" growing body: when you transfer the candidate's consciousness to a meat-puppet, you can ensure that the meat-puppet is at whatever size is appropriate and doesn't grow after that. It's quite elegant and has some intriguing edge-case possibilities: the perpetual 12-year-old who never grows physically unless they have a new clone made, and the "Big" kid-suddenly-in-an-adult's body.
Side notes:
- I've long played that the combination of factors which make people able to endure the pod is rare enough that places will train even the weirdest candidates. It's hard to imagine why some of us became podders otherwise. :)
- It sounds like Mata's at the young end of the spectrum: untimely ripped from her previous vocational training to be put through pod stuff, then graduating at 19 thinking she was an old woman because she hadn't had her first child when the others in her cohort did. I enjoy the various clashes of expectations.
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Actually, Gallenteans finding the Minmatar concept of adulthood via the Voluval at teenage years might be another thing they find morally reprehensible.
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Ghost still has his original body, for instance, so.
You've never been podded? o.O
Man, I wish. No, I've been podded somewhere in the area of less than 20 times. For the sake of Ghost's story, however, his original body is somewhere™. Actually, I'm pretty sure my father's character might have the first cloned body I dropped in the game still. Or maybe that was my highest bounty clone of a couple hundred mill before he murdered me for his money back...
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Might be worth noting that, over the centuries, the age of majority has gone up, not down. No more preteen midshipmen in imperial navies, or preteen university students.
The "traditional" subcultures found amongst all four factions will not tolerate children trying to be more mature than they are. Even in the Federation, I imagine that enough conservative pressure is applied on the government to never let the age of recruitment into the military drop any lower than 16-18. The Gallenteans have "high moral standards" when it comes to institutional affairs, never mind what they might do in their social lives.
Perhaps in the case of militaries, where it is more a matter of current prevailing morality (and a lack of apocalyptic urgency). I think it's not quite that clear cut otherwise. In some ways, people grow up really, really fast these days (I seem to recall that this is actually the case physiologically as well, but I'm lacking a quotable source). On the other, we still have 30 year olds playing what some would consider kid's games.
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- I've long played that the combination of factors which make people able to endure the pod is rare enough that places will train even the weirdest candidates. It's hard to imagine why some of us became podders otherwise.
Pretty much this, I might be wrong, but I think I recall some bit of PF saying that everyone would get trained if they had the "potential to succeed". On the other hand I could see how that might have changed now, after almost what, nine years?
Also, the fact that the pod pilots education might start at age 14 doesn't mean they will be spaceborne by their 16th birthday or somesuch. No offense to anyone, but I sure as hell would not want to have someone fly around with in a permanently adolescent state (the poor mission agents :( ) .
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No offense to anyone, but I sure as hell would not want to have someone fly around with in a permanently adolescent state (the poor mission agents :( ) .
That's a terrifying concept, but it implies that capsuleer replacement clones -- and mental states -- would remain frozen in time and never mature. Experience is what enables us to develop; it stands to reason that a teenage capsuleer would mature mentally at or above the average rate (depending on the experiences and training; one can only imagine what effect those might have).
As to their physical state, I was under the impression that clones are "aged" to whatever the capsuleer's natural age is, rather than locked at the period in time when the genetic sample is taken. We are not Space Vampires (most of us, anyway); capsuleers are no more frozen in time than any other human, and even a cloned body would begin to show wear and tear. Given a bit of additional ISK, I'm sure a clone's age could be set at whatever age the capsuleer desires. But considering the psychological ramifications of having, as they say, an adult mind in a child's body, it seems unlikely that a teenaged capsuleer would be permitted to remain teenaged as time passes.
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I doubt a teenagers parents would let one anywhere near a combat vessel.
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If they actually have parents.
Noooo I am not refering to "my parents were killed by evil slavers" :D
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If they actually have parents.
Noooo I am not refering to "my parents were killed by evil slavers" :D
Kat doesn't have parents in the traditional sense. Tube child!
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Personally, I would imagine a rookie capsuleer in one of the four major political/military/industrial environments to hover around their early 20s age wise. This based on an assumed (which could be wrong) standard training regime that starts in your late teens and goes to 23, 24 years of age. This would incorporate an OCS, as well as a flight school curriculum that aims to get capsuleers skywise not only in a timely fashion, but in a well trained, flight competent manner. One that not only educates in the ways of combat, but in the attitude expected of a respectable capsuleer befitting their position (not that the attitude would stick past school, anyway).
That being said, I also would think that capsuleers would exist outside of that age group. Just as we have older individuals joining today's military, so would there be the same dynamic in the capsuleer corps.
You can also add into the fact, that some, such as pirate and outlaw organizations, could conceivably have older or younger pilots as not only is their technology of a different quality and standard, but their requirements are as well.
Pirates would have little concern for the overall education of the capsuleer, I would imagine, and would place more of an emphasis on the down and dirty skills needed to effectively fly the craft. This could lead to individuals placing outside a standard age group, although I also couldn't see them giving the keys to the corvette to someone still in adolescence.
Which makes me also wonder about the technology aspect. I'm sure the four major groups have different yet equal levels of capsuleer technology, that keeps their pilots on the cutting edge of the operational envelop, but it leads me to think that much like third world countries in today's time, the pirate and outlaw factions, while still possessing adequate tech, do not measure up equipment wise to their 'big brothers.' This could produce an odd strategic and tactical doctrine, as some might focus on training the skill level of the capsuleer to be equal, or greater than their hunters, and some might opt in for the 'blob' mentality, where it's accepted they can't match the skill and tech of their enemies, so they'll overwhelm with sheer numbers and hope for the best.
I suppose this would then lead me to assume that capsuleer age might not be so dependent on where the individual is in their respective growth cycle, but where the person fits into the strategic and tactical system of the employing entity.
The four factions might wish to display a professional appearance and attitude in their capsuleers they feel wouldn't be best served by extremely young individuals, while the more dubious side of the fence might not have the same reluctance.
Just my 2 ISK.