Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => EVE OOC Summit => Topic started by: Seriphyn on 14 Jul 2012, 17:21
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It's been brought up numerous times before, how the pirate factions are more than just pirates, since they also control a region of space. But I was thinking of an analogy to better illustrate/illuminate the topic, going with references from The Burning Life.
Let's take the Angel Cartel, which controls Curse. From in-game visuals only, there is only one "developed" world in Curse, which is Utopia III. From TBL, we get an insight into what life is like in these regions. From the sounds of it, their levels of development are frontier/colonial, as you would expect from nullsec. Pirate faction missions also mention a "Tribute" system, which is used to keep these territories down and undeveloped in return for protection. They're not permitted weapons or some such, so they're not a threat to the Cartel/whoever.
It effectively sounds like an oligarchy/junta. If you're connected to the 'establishment' (Cartel, Guristas, Serpentis etc.), you're made. Otherwise, you just live in some frontier/undeveloped settlement under the aegis/iron fist of the pirate faction. The oligarchy has no interest in developing a formal system of government, an administration, a bureaucracy, or whatever, nor is it interested in developing an economy or infrastructure. It is only interested in expanding its own power and influence for the benefit of those within the oligarchy, and cares little for those outside of it within their territory (unless you choose to sign up). You can probably live a long life in these pirate regions, but I'd expect living standards worse than those in the empires, and very isolated lives with little opportunity for space travel. Those apart of the Angel Cartel probably have their main residences on Utopia III, along with their families, and so forth. Probably a planet-wide Omega sort of place.
You can probably live much more freely than anywhere in the empires, with no bureaucracy or government footprint. However, without a legal system or social contract of any kind, nothing's stopping the owners from coming down and messing with you, maybe dragging you up into space as a crewman. If you're a pretty woman, you might end up a slave for a warlord, or some such.
A pseudo-anarchy of some sorts. Perhaps like Somalia. It's an area of space where people live, no formal government or economy or anything of the sort, but a powerful group of warlords that keep things relatively stable. Just don't mess with them, and lock your doors when they come down for their tribute.
An idea I had, figured I'd throw it out there. NPC nullsec as the "third world" of EVE (excl. Sansha's Nation).
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Depends which pirates. I would have thought the Angels and the Serpentis to be more mafia-esque in their ways and the Guristas to be more ragtag like the traditional idea of pirates. I mean. like the time the Angels tried to muscle a system away from the republic or how the serps were actually created. The Guristas seem to be more rogueish from their founding. But then this isn't really that pf based so could be completely wrong.
tl;dr Angels & Serps = The Godfather, Guristas = Pirates of the Carribean.
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Oh yeah, I more meant how they governed their regions (Curse, Venal, etc.), and the people that live in them.
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Blood Raiders and Sansha's would probably be far more regimented. Sansha, naturally, as this mass of semi-sentient True Slaves supporting a small number of elite True Citizens. The Blood Raiders are almost surely more structured as a massive cult than, say, the Angel Cartel is as a government. The Blood Raiders, I imagine, are a bit like a miniature Empire, and since they only control a single constellation as opposed to an entire region, their numbers are likely much easier to control.
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I haven't looked too closely at any canon on the subject other than the Angels, so I'll just focus on Curse for now.
What I think of as "third world" is someplace that is dysfunctional on virtually every level: socially, politically, technologically, economically, and on and on. Each dysfunction feeds the others: roads only get fixed in election years; a nominally national ruler rules primarily to profit his own tribe; corruption drains infrastructure projects; without infrastructure, the economy's development is crippled.
If you think the U.S. is part of the third world (as some metrics admittedly suggest), I invite you to go spend a couple weeks observing at a district court in rural Uganda.
That's not Curse, not even if you throw in a ruthless dictator. The Angel Cartel is tightly-organized, well-staffed, technologically advanced, and "corrupt" only in the sense that it foments corruption in other cultures as a means to its own profit. It builds fleets for other powers. There's nothing internally dysfunctional about it unless you get around to talking about ethics. It is essentially a criminal gang that became the government of its region.
An accurate image is probably if the Zetas found a cache of ancient tech and used it to conquer Mexico, then set about ensuring their continued political, military, economic, and technological dominance with their customary ruthless(ness and) efficiency.
This is less "third world" and more "barbarian power." These guys don't play by the same rules as the civilized big four; they're less acculturated, feeling little loyalty to outsiders and intense loyalty to their own.
The people, in this setup, exist to serve their rulers. Civilians are a resource to be tended or exploited as the situation warrants. Conscripts should feel honored to be inducted-- and will; they just need a little seasoning to get the right esprit de corps. It doesn't matter whether the people want to be ruled so long as they submit.
This differs from the big four primarily in that there's no higher principle to be found-- no Kingdom of God, no traditional "way of life" as per the Caldari or Minmatar, no list of self-evident rights and liberties-- just an order of tritanium-clad might-making-right in which loyalty is valued primarily in that it reduces the level of threat, and chaos lurks just the other side of the next disobeyed order.
In time, it might mellow into something a little less harsh. For now, it's the mafia crossed with the Mongol hordes, complete with horsebowmen.
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As usual, Aria is pretty spot on with how I think the Angel Cartel is presented in-game.
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I tend to see these factions as "violent non-state actors" meaning they control some significant territorial control, administer some form of governmental services and fund their operations largely through criminal activity.
Each of them have their own particular twists, however.
Guristas remind me of the FARC in Colombia, minus the politics perhaps.
Serpentis is the Zetas in reverse, starting as legitimate business and getting into criminal activity rather than criminals using businesses as fronts.
Angels are "the Mafia" in general, dabbling in all kinds of illegal activity while also providing muscle or smuggling to other criminal (or even legitimate) groups.
The Intaki Syndicate is pre-Castro Cuba, known for both its high-roller tourism and as a black market clearing house.
Blood Raiders might be akin to a Haitian voodoo cult (a-la pop culture at least with the crazy blood rituals and what-not) or other Caribbean "witchcraft."
Sansha's I'd have compared to something along the lines of the Heaven's Gate cult originally, but obviously that might be a quite understated comparison, nowadays.
Obviously some of these are quite imperfect (especially Blood Raiders and Sansha's, which are quite "out there" as far as sustainable widespread cohesion goes).
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Angels are "the Mafia" in general, dabbling in all kinds of illegal activity while also providing muscle or smuggling to other criminal (or even legitimate) groups.
My main difference with this is that I have difficulty connecting the words "gigantic Mafia battleship" in my head. Or, "Mafia shipyard." Or, "Mafia military parade." Just fuggeddaboudit. They're too solidly united to even strike me as vaguely Italian (Italy has a long, long history of raising regional factionalism to a fine art).
Inside the other empires, though, I agree that it works-- if you cross the business aspect with a certain quantity of "infiltration of underworld by hostile foreign power."
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Aria - yeah, I think me using the term "third world" was a bit inaccurate. "Barbarian power" is more appropiate. I like your approach.
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I'll throw out the counter point for devil's advocacy:
When you get down to it I don't think many of the 'pirate' factions operate in a "significantly" different manor than any of the 'big four.' They just have less territory.
The corruption might be more up front or the rituals a little more raw, but the only difference between a warlord and a dictator and am emperor is probably how many people they have under their thumb :P
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Also: "third world" has a particular definition that applies particularly well here. IRL, it (originally) meant nations not explicitly aligned with US/NATO or USSR/Warsaw Pact. Now, of course, we usually mean "developing nations" when we say that, and particularly the areas of the world that significantly lag in many indicators of development.
In that first sense, though, nations that do not explicitly support the Amarr/Caldari or Gallente/Minmatar axes certainly do strike me as "third world". Whether or not they are dictatorships means something else entirely, of course. For example, whatever else someone might think of the Syndicate, calling them a "dictatorship" would be both inaccurate and imprecise.
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Right, of course.
I just mean with the general concept of 'shades of grey' when referring to the big four, is that the 'pirate factions' are in the same vein... just a little more obviously grey :)
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But are there fifty shades?
EDIT: Okay, I was off-topic. I'll smack myself for that one. ;)
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I'll throw out the counter point for devil's advocacy:
When you get down to it I don't think many of the 'pirate' factions operate in a "significantly" different manor than any of the 'big four.' They just have less territory.
The corruption might be more up front or the rituals a little more raw, but the only difference between a warlord and a dictator and am emperor is probably how many people they have under their thumb :P
I might disagree. I do not see pirate factions the same way at all. I see them as ruthless with criminal practices, like pragmatic slavery, no morals, piracy, dirty dealings, everything that is morally wrong in any of the other factions. Not that the big four are particularily shiny, but in comparison to me, they are. A cartel remains a cartel, a mafia. Blooders are described as scary space vampires and butchers that haunt empty space and scare the hell out of everyone. Etc.
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I think the other key difference between the pirate factions and empire factions (ignoring that the pirate factions, well, pirate) is that they are not nations in the sense that, they have no legal system or social contract. No concept of 'constituents' or 'citizens', other than those who are directly members of the pirate organization.
For example, since all empire factions are basically law-based confederacies in some way or another, while the Fed President could theoritically send troops down to Planet A's cities, that planet and its citizens have rights as per the Federation's laws. They can protest to the Supreme Court or Senate, who both can take action against the President and revoke what he's trying to do. There's also a free media that can summon up a popular storm, and if the President's troopers went so far as to shoot the protestors, there'll be implications across the entire Federation which might split it completely (as what almost happened in the beginning of the Gallente-Caldari War).
Because pirate subjects won't have universal rights or laws, nothing is stopping them from doing what they want. They keep power purely via military means, rather than, say, the Federation keeping power by a democratic political and legal system. In this sense, they are 'dictatorships'. What they say, goes, as Aria pointed out. In the sense they are not dictatorships, is that even a dictatorship suggests there's some concept of nationhood. I think it's more "territory and subjects" to the pirate factions, rather than "nation and citizens".
But yeah, the pirate factions primary purpose is to, well, pirate. The empires are nations, they have lots and lots of other endeavours. Building infrastructure, educating their population, researching civilian technology to better the lives of their citizenry, etc.
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Angels are "the Mafia" in general, dabbling in all kinds of illegal activity while also providing muscle or smuggling to other criminal (or even legitimate) groups.
My main difference with this is that I have difficulty connecting the words "gigantic Mafia battleship" in my head. Or, "Mafia shipyard." Or, "Mafia military parade." Just fuggeddaboudit. They're too solidly united to even strike me as vaguely Italian (Italy has a long, long history of raising regional factionalism to a fine art).
Inside the other empires, though, I agree that it works-- if you cross the business aspect with a certain quantity of "infiltration of underworld by hostile foreign power."
Yeah, I agree.
However, it is also hard to connect the words "gigantic cannibalistic cult battleship/shipyard." Also, I wasn't meaning to suggest any kind of ethnic flavoring with these comparisons. Mostly my point was to illustrate that we shouldn't throw blanket generalizations about these factions around. Each one has its own flavors and twists.
As always, any analogy breaks down at a certain point :9.
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Oh yeah, I more meant how they governed their regions (Curse, Venal, etc.), and the people that live in them.
Poorly, worded sorry. Should have elaborated that what I meant was that "citizens" in Angel or Serp territory would probably be on a "protection" sort of basis i.e. pay and nothing bad happens to you. Guristas would probably be more anarchy or maybe with a loose code thing.
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Oh yeah, I more meant how they governed their regions (Curse, Venal, etc.), and the people that live in them.
Poorly, worded sorry. Should have elaborated that what I meant was that "citizens" in Angel or Serp territory would probably be on a "protection" sort of basis i.e. pay and nothing bad happens to you. Guristas would probably be more anarchy or maybe with a loose code thing.
From the Guristas Evelopedia entry (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Guristas_Pirates):
"Mining colonies
The Guristas often take over ruins in deadspace pockets, creating civilian-staffed mining colonies they protect with spaceship fleets and defense turrets. The Guristas are apparently willing to pay for revenge against capsuleers and others who destroy any civilian mining colonies under their protection."
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I'm inclined to agree with Aria's POV, basically that most of (but not all of) the pirate empires aren't really "pirate empires" in the literal sense, but rogue states. A better term might be "mafia states," a trendy topic in certain foreign relations circles at the moment.
Check out the article below, it was in Foreign Affairs a couple months back, but those bastards are now charging to read the whole thing, so I found a free version:
http://carnegieendowment.org/2012/04/25/mafia-states/ah37 (http://carnegieendowment.org/2012/04/25/mafia-states/ah37)
Obviously, it's an imperfect comparison with EVE, but I think the article sort of puts things in perspective. Countries where criminals hold the reins of power can still function, to a certain degree, as states (and when I say criminals I'm talking about major drug and/or human traffickers and murderers, not people who engage in insider trading, misuse campaign contributions, or hand a government contract to their brother in law).
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Sanshas Nation
=
North Korea with super science
That is all.
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http://carnegieendowment.org/2012/04/25/mafia-states/ah37 (http://carnegieendowment.org/2012/04/25/mafia-states/ah37)
Obviously, it's an imperfect comparison with EVE, but I think the article sort of puts things in perspective. Countries where criminals hold the reins of power can still function, to a certain degree, as states (and when I say criminals I'm talking about major drug and/or human traffickers and murderers, not people who engage in insider trading, misuse campaign contributions, or hand a government contract to their brother in law).
Awesome article. I think the major distinction between this and EVE is that IRL Mafia states develop from normal states getting intertwined with organized crime. I would imagine that this compares closely to certain systems on the fringes of the empires, where local governors have decided they can better expand their influence/power/wealth though OC rather than through legitimate means.
What’s interesting is how things would develop in places where there wasn’t a previous government. For example, in Cartel territory, who handles infrastructure? One of the purposes of government is to “provide for the common good,” which means doing things like building roads which are too expensive for any one person to be willing to pay for them. Infrastructure is often one of the first victims of corruption, but is vital for economic development. The predictable result is that economic development suffers and even reverses as infrastructure deteriorates.
But what about cases where there never was a legitimate, honest government in the first place to build infrastructure at all? The poorest nations in the world are the ones that started out corrupt and never changed. They never built the necessary infrastructure in the first place, and as a result their economies are nearly non-existent.
So we’ve got two categories of corrupt nation: Those that started out legitimately, built infrastructure, built their nation, and then became corrupted (See: Russia, Venezuela, etc); and those that never did, leading to a complete lack of economic development and widespread poverty (See: Somalia, other african dictatorships).
I can see there being a lot of systems around the fringes of the empires and lowsec that resemble the first category. But once you get out to NPC nullsec, I would expect to see more of the latter. This would result in large portions of Curse and possibly Delve being fairly impoverished as Seri suggested.
So here’s the question:
Would the leaders/authority figures of the various pirate factions actually be willing to spend money on things which are “for the common good” like roads, hospitals, etc, rather than doing the usual corrupt thing and keeping the money for themselves?
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Nice post, Stecker. I think one step in considering that is that these are space-faring empires and not land-based countries. It all comes down to how much value a planet has to these factions. The empires were built bottom up from planet-born civilizations; whether they conquered like the Amarr or globalized like the Gallente, still the same principle.
However, the pirate factions were not born from civilizations. They emerged as space-based entities and then claimed planets (I'm assuming). So a completely inverted approach. It begs the question if planets are considered the 'building blocks' of these factions like they are in the empires, and are vital to their survival. But considering these pirate factions rely on the space-based economy and system to survive (of which they were born), I doubt it. If their primary activities are space piracy, space black market, etc. then it is unclear what value planets have to them, especially that deadspace can provide for all space-based activities.
Incidentally, they seem to invest heavily in deadspace infrastructural development, for the benefit of their organization (supplies, ships etc.). It's probably not all-or-nothing; if the planets have no value to them, they're left alone to do whatever they want. However, if they need something from them, then...
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I knew just reading the title of this thread that I was going to disagree enough to post. Damnit...
But then suddenly Aria and I am left feeling fulfilled. Well mostly, two other things I wanted to bring up, I thought some of the PF suggested that the majority of the "pirate" factions received AID/support from at least one, if not more, of the four empires?
Stands to reason that Amarr would help the Angels a bit since they keep at least part of the Minmatar fleet busy fighting them, Gallente help the Gurista's, for the same reason that the Caldari would help the Serpentis. Think of it a little like the US/UK/others sending aid to "freedom fighters" in other countries, in order to help them against foe supported incumbent governments or vice versa. Lots of War's by proxy out there. Not sure how true that is?
Also these Pirate factions seem to have a bit more of a corporate structure then has been given them credit for, with singular "leaders" of some kind or another, it would stand to reason, as with current day gangs and mafia, that the better organized groups would eliminate the more disorganized groups in pretty short order, or, just as likely, absorb them as well. Maybe less structured than say, the Minmatar Navy, but still overall organized in a way that makes them efficient and productive. (nice post by Victoria that covers a bit of this well, ofc posted while I was writing this)
Seri; I'm not sure it's right to say "The pirate factions were not born from civilizations." I would say that while their population doesn't seem to come from just planets, that they are still originating from one of the civilizations(empires) or another. It's a truth that people need places to live, and be that in a space station or on a planet. If people face persecution in the empires, they would likely move out to unknown space to be with people who believed or acted as they did. While it would likely be very wild-west out there, and rough living, I have a hard time thinking that it would be completely without saving graces that would lure more people out there.
Leaders of pirate corps might live a million times better than their "subjects" you can hardly expect that if they treated their people like garbage, ie no medical care, no money spent on infrastructure, that new recruits would continue to join their ranks. "That place is horrible, and disease ridden, and people are dying all the time, hardly enough people left alive to create a living." doesn't sound to me like a place people would desire to move to or live in, they would instead be more willing to follow a leader who might still be a dictator but has at least some regard for the people.
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I didn't explain myself eloquently enough, but I only mean that often 'legitimate' states are simply 'rogue' states that have developed to a certain extent and become accepted.
One cartel, or leader, or organization eventually takes charge, and as their power is legitimized they stabilize their territory and they eventually have to provide security, infrastructure, and all the societal needs of their peoples.
Look at places in Central America where the cartels are 100% running the show; once there is no fighting over territory they step in where the 'state' has failed and start taking care of their people. They need workers to be productive like any other organization and they get more out of it when they provide a stable environment, etc.
The Mayor of Chicago for 20 years was a legitimate member of the Irish street gangs that fought for power and killed or incarcerated all of their rivals. They figured the system out, rigged the politics, and 'elected' their gang members into office, and then proceeded to lock up all of their gang rivals and run the city for the last 70 years or so.
Look at all the oligarchs running Russia or any number of Eastern European countries.
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I also remember the Burning Life novel going to great extent in showing that the 'everyday' people among many of the Pirate Factions aren't all that different than any other big four citizens. IE The Blood Raider's grandmother, etc...
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Anybody familiar with the history of the American Revolution can see significant elements of what Silas is saying there as well. Let's see, wealthy racist slave owners who don't want to pay taxes...
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Seri; I'm not sure it's right to say "The pirate factions were not born from civilizations." I would say that while their population doesn't seem to come from just planets, that they are still originating from one of the civilizations(empires) or another. It's a truth that people need places to live, and be that in a space station or on a planet. If people face persecution in the empires, they would likely move out to unknown space to be with people who believed or acted as they did. While it would likely be very wild-west out there, and rough living, I have a hard time thinking that it would be completely without saving graces that would lure more people out there.
Leaders of pirate corps might live a million times better than their "subjects" you can hardly expect that if they treated their people like garbage, ie no medical care, no money spent on infrastructure, that new recruits would continue to join their ranks. "That place is horrible, and disease ridden, and people are dying all the time, hardly enough people left alive to create a living." doesn't sound to me like a place people would desire to move to or live in, they would instead be more willing to follow a leader who might still be a dictator but has at least some regard for the people.
When I say born of civilizations, I mean emerging from a single planet to expand their culture and nation over an area of space. The pirate factions are 'top-down' in comparison, and don't have concepts of nationhood as I mentioned earlier :>
I think there's a dichotomy to be made between people who live as apart of the pirate factions, and those who live under the pirate factions. If people are going to move out from their societies (putting aside it's suggested people would consider the Federation first (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Black_Eagles#Overview)), they're going to join the pirate organizations directly where, yes, they'll be treated well.
However, as was pointed out, not everyone who lives in Curse are apart of the Angel Cartel necessarily, so their conditions would be frontier-level (it's nullsec for a reason after all). I don't think Guristas lure to Venal, or Angel Cartel lure to Curse. Guristas lure to Guristas, Cartel lures to Cartel. And since these guys operate anywhere, you don't even need to move out there to be apart of them.
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I think these actually illustrate my point fairly well:
Look at places in Central America where the cartels are 100% running the show; once there is no fighting over territory they step in where the 'state' has failed and start taking care of their people. They need workers to be productive like any other organization and they get more out of it when they provide a stable environment, etc.
The Mayor of Chicago for 20 years was a legitimate member of the Irish street gangs that fought for power and killed or incarcerated all of their rivals. They figured the system out, rigged the politics, and 'elected' their gang members into office, and then proceeded to lock up all of their gang rivals and run the city for the last 70 years or so.
Look at all the oligarchs running Russia or any number of Eastern European countries.
These are all instances of a strong, pre-existing central government being corrupted and taken over by criminal interests. In russia in particular, there is still a strong central government doing its job to take care of the people, maintaining stuff, etc. They are doing so with the approval/blessing of the oligarchs and criminals who recognize that infrastructure is important for them, but the criminals themselves aren't diong the day-to-day governing. They're busy making money.
So did the Cartel, for example, take over curse by corrupting every single planetary government in the area? This seems more likely than them building the governments/infrastructure from scratch.
The Guristas would have done something similar, I'd imagine. The Serpentis did something more like the Russian model, moving in as a powerful corporate interest (rather than criminal) and corrupting the local systems to their benefit. And then you've got the Sani Sabik, which probably spread as just an underground cult until they realized that their membership included everyone in charge in Delve and they stopped bothering to hide.
The Sansha are the only group I can see actually moving into a place where there isn't an existing governing structure and setting up shop from scratch.
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I think these actually illustrate my point fairly well:
Look at places in Central America where the cartels are 100% running the show; once there is no fighting over territory they step in where the 'state' has failed and start taking care of their people. They need workers to be productive like any other organization and they get more out of it when they provide a stable environment, etc.
The Mayor of Chicago for 20 years was a legitimate member of the Irish street gangs that fought for power and killed or incarcerated all of their rivals. They figured the system out, rigged the politics, and 'elected' their gang members into office, and then proceeded to lock up all of their gang rivals and run the city for the last 70 years or so.
Look at all the oligarchs running Russia or any number of Eastern European countries.
These are all instances of a strong, pre-existing central government being corrupted and taken over by criminal interests. In russia in particular, there is still a strong central government doing its job to take care of the people, maintaining stuff, etc. They are doing so with the approval/blessing of the oligarchs and criminals who recognize that infrastructure is important for them, but the criminals themselves aren't diong the day-to-day governing. They're busy making money.
So did the Cartel, for example, take over curse by corrupting every single planetary government in the area? This seems more likely than them building the governments/infrastructure from scratch.
The Guristas would have done something similar, I'd imagine. The Serpentis did something more like the Russian model, moving in as a powerful corporate interest (rather than criminal) and corrupting the local systems to their benefit. And then you've got the Sani Sabik, which probably spread as just an underground cult until they realized that their membership included everyone in charge in Delve and they stopped bothering to hide.
The Sansha are the only group I can see actually moving into a place where there isn't an existing governing structure and setting up shop from scratch.
+1
Especially for Sansha, I'd consider them a bit of the odd man out with regards to the model we are discussing.
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When I say born of civilizations, I mean emerging from a single planet to expand their culture and nation over an area of space. The pirate factions are 'top-down' in comparison, and don't have concepts of nationhood as I mentioned earlier :>
I think there's a dichotomy to be made between people who live as apart of the pirate factions, and those who live under the pirate factions. If people are going to move out from their societies (putting aside it's suggested people would consider the Federation first (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Black_Eagles#Overview)), they're going to join the pirate organizations directly where, yes, they'll be treated well.
However, as was pointed out, not everyone who lives in Curse are a part of the Angel Cartel necessarily, so their conditions would be frontier-level (it's nullsec for a reason after all). I don't think Guristas lure to Venal, or Angel Cartel lure to Curse. Guristas lure to Guristas, Cartel lures to Cartel. And since these guys operate anywhere, you don't even need to move out there to be a part of them.
apart - separated, removed from, in a seperate section of, ie "To take a watch apart"
a part (of) - included in, ie "Those kids are a part of that family."
Now with that more clear and fixed in your quote and my ADD settled enough for me to respond...
How exactly do you think gangs are formed in the first place? Like people draw together to defend themselves or create a life where they are successful and able to live well. While there might not be an entire planet that drove the formation of the Gurista's/angels, they did start from a single planet, likely from a single group, led by a single person, who believes and leads his members. While luring might not be exact like Angels lure to curse, you kind of kill that point with the follow up to Cartel lures to Cartel, okay well the Cartel is in CURSE, so if you want to go be a part of the Cartel, it might make sense to head to Curse if you can't find your 'local' chapter of the cartel.
Members of the pirate factions are probably labelled as criminals and to escape that they might tend to go somewhere that the "law" of whatever empire wants to put them into prison, doesn't reach. Hence moving out to Curse, or Venal, or where ever. To retain those people, those organizations must have at least the ability to support them.
Back to one thing that is bugging me, does it take an entire planet to form a civilization? So basically Earth has no civilizations because our entire planet doesn't have a singular civilization, or do we have many civilizations and cultures that all co-exist to some extend or another on this planet? Sorry that sounds overly accusatory, but my baseline point is that it doesn't take an entire planet agreeing on how things are to form a civilization.
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So did the Cartel, for example, take over curse by corrupting every single planetary government in the area? This seems more likely than them building the governments/infrastructure from scratch.
I thought the relevant PF was that they found Jove toys and conquered all the other poor bastards in the area. (Can't get onto Evelopedia at the moment, sadfaec.)
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I thought the relevant PF was that they found Jove toys and conquered all the other poor bastards in the area. (Can't get onto Evelopedia at the moment, sadfaec.)
So this would imply that there were people there to conquer - again, that they came in and took over rather tahn building from the ground up. Makes sense, even if it feels a little more hand-wavey. None of that slow corruption thing, we'll just :jovian: it and call it a day.
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Feythabolis region mentions how they were a reasonably advanced culture, or group of cultures, that had developed their own spacecraft and so on.
Then the Angel Cartel enslaved all of them, and utterly destroyed all that there was of their culture.
"The human diaspora throughout the systems of New Eden was quite widespread prior to the collapse of the EVE Gate. In many areas, cultures cut off from other civilizations thrived in isolation. One of these regions was Feythabolis, a relatively small empire of progressive thinkers and egalitarian political philosophers. Unfortunately, this state lagged behind other empires significantly in technological advancement, having only recently started to colonize the local space just as the ruthless Angel Cartel was moving in to establish their control. Completely outclassed by the military forces of the Cartel, the fledgling empire was defeated with ease and its entire population bent to the will of the Angels." Region Description.
Which means the Cartel are worse than the Amarr Empire. A fact that many conveniently overlook.
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Curious: I can see how that could make the Cartel morally equal to the Empire, but worse in what way?
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Curious: I can see how that could make the Cartel morally equal to the Empire, but worse in what way?
The Minmatar were never entirely conquered, their culture survived. Feythabolians, not so much.
The Empire did what it did, for the Minmatar's own good. The Cartel do not have any similar motivation, it was for the Cartel's good.
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But what about all the other cultures before the Minmatar?
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And how about including they did what they did for the Minmatar's perceived good, not their actual 'good' just that the Amarr perceived it to be for their good. Actually it was for the good of the Amarr empire and their drive to attempt to subjugate and enslave and force their culture on anyone they encountered, not just the Minmatar.
Only the Minnies manage to hold on to some of their identity through the struggle, as did some of the Khanid, though the Khanid religion was replaced with the Amarr religion.
So I guess that makes the Angels just better at subjugating than the Amarr. It's already well known that the Angels are slavers and in all kinds of nasty stuff. Not sure what you mean by "many people overlook"
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The Udorians say "hi".
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Feythabolis region mentions how they were a reasonably advanced culture, or group of cultures, that had developed their own spacecraft and so on.
Then the Angel Cartel enslaved all of them, and utterly destroyed all that there was of their culture.
"The human diaspora throughout the systems of New Eden was quite widespread prior to the collapse of the EVE Gate. In many areas, cultures cut off from other civilizations thrived in isolation. One of these regions was Feythabolis, a relatively small empire of progressive thinkers and egalitarian political philosophers. Unfortunately, this state lagged behind other empires significantly in technological advancement, having only recently started to colonize the local space just as the ruthless Angel Cartel was moving in to establish their control. Completely outclassed by the military forces of the Cartel, the fledgling empire was defeated with ease and its entire population bent to the will of the Angels." Region Description.
Which means the Cartel are worse than the Amarr Empire. A fact that many conveniently overlook.
Odd. I read that as a military defeat, 'bent to the will of the angels' hardly reads as "enslaved and destoyed all of their culture." While they probably aren't encouraging their previous egalitarian thinking, it seems like it would be a "do what we tell you and we won't bomb you from orbit" situation, perhaps using the locals to build ships/weapons/whatever else the cartel needs. Maybe the planetary climates are well suited to growing cash crops, boosters and drugs and such.
I really don't see any reason to think that the angels did more than beat them up militarily and demand that they do whatever. Completely eradicating a culture seems like a lot of work with no payoff for the cartel.
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Good, right, wrong...
To me this last page of discussion mostly sounds like to me that everyone is more interested to defend his own meat with biased views. For a moment I thought you were speaking ICly.
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Lyn, some folks may sound that way, though some of us don't have any factions to defend. ;)
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Lyn, some folks may sound that way, though some of us don't have any factions to defend. ;)
No faction, best faction.
For varying contexts of the phrase "no faction".
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Not sure what you mean by "many people overlook"
eh, tendency among RPers to go "i'm an angel cartel associate now" and then later expect people not to criticise things, and say "oh the angels aren't bad".
vOv
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Louella, to be fair, I've noticed a tendency among many factional RPers to start to absorb the outlook of their characters' factions. That doesn't just hold true for the Cartel but also for many who are attached in some way to the four core nations, for example.
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Roden and Blaque are probably with varying degrees of success turning the Federation into a corporate-military police state with Jacus Roden as Generalissimo.
Most CEO's of State Megas for all intents and purposes might as well be the ruling dictators of their corporate fiefs and they have the private armies to enforce their will over their employees.
Darius Shakor as San Matar is in many respects acting as a military dictator over the tribes and the Republic.
Empress Jamyl Sarum in terms of the power she wields over the Empire could also be described as a military dictator.
I fail to see why only the pirate factions would fall under the concept of being a military dictatorship when it seems like a pretty popular governing model in New Eden. Or is it just me?
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I am pretty sure that their ruling bodies is not really the key difference. The difference is probably more like Aria said, and also on their methods.
The blood raiders spend their times farming the dark corners of space for fresh meat and blood. Their ships look like moving slaughterhouses.
The Cartel are mafia organized, offer people protection against their total submission (and their money, and maybe their families ?). They deal in crime in every Empire, drugs, murder, corruption, whatever.
The Guristas blow up people in space for money, the perfect archetype of pirates. They would sell their mothers for isk or just the pleasure to see the caldari megas burn.
Oh, I am pretty sure the Empires have their own dirty dealings either, but most of them are restricted by their laws (which make them look like hypocrites when it happens nevertheless). I do not see why it is such a problem.
Yes, I may have had issues repeatedly in the past because I was a little sad to only see respectable and noble pirates and wanted to see dirtier pirate factions. Whatever. It is normal to see most players trying to make their characters look good.