Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => EVE OOC Summit => Topic started by: Anslol on 25 Apr 2013, 10:07
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Tattoos mean more to a Minmatar than a life time supply of T2 duct tape and beer. The mere presence of a voluval mark can determine an individuals status for the rest of their lives, as well as effect their future generations.
However, not all tattoos are of that ritual. Some are reminders of battles, life events, families, births, deaths, and so on and so forth. But each has a meaning for them. It makes sense that a Matari person would be offended at the idea of someone (lolGallente) using tattoos as a type of fashion. But is that disdain for extra-cultural use of a tradition held dear by the Minmatar limited to just meaninglessness or over all use despite meaning?
I ask because, ICly, Anslo now has a tattoo that, to him, has meaning and importance. So far one Minmatar ICly knows about it and approves. They key to the approval was that there was a purpose, that it wasn't just for looks. So I ask this to Minmatar RPers here.
Would a Gallentean be looked down on for getting a tattoo at all, or only if it was meaningless? I do not ask so that I can adjust my RP to not rustle feathers (I'm not getting rid of his tattoo), but more for my own interest and intrigue.
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I believe there are better ways to offend a minmatar, than making a tattoo. Besides, by doing a tattoo you are doing it with your own body ;)
I am not a minmatar RP-er myself, sorry, never tried it, but I think that what would really offend minmatar is a tattoo that has also some sort of sacred minmatar meaning, used for another or no meaning. For example, Ray of matar.
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Minmatar do not have the exclusive cultural trademark on all tattoos. That's not what offends them. They won't care if Anslo has a sailor's anchor behind a heart that says "MOM" on it. They won't care if he has a big tattoo across his back that says "GURI 4 LYFE", or an image of a praying Saint Kor-Azor with a crown of thorns behind a sunburst, or whatever.
Minmatar only care about Minmatar Tattoos. That means tattoos that have specific meaning to Minmatar culture, such as the voluval, naming marks, and other extremely specific designs that mean specific things. Minmatar tattoos are like a visual language. They tell very specific stories about the wearer, and as such they likely follow a very specific format and style, not entirely unlike a written language.
So, most tattoos will mean nothing to a Minmatar beyond the actual visual representation or words they say. It's possible that Anslo's tattoo might mean something obscure or unintentional to a Minmatar, in the manner of how you might scribble some lines down on a piece of paper and it ends up almost looking like a word. Most likely, if Anslo just got a regular picture tattoo or some regular words inked on... it's no big deal.
Keep in mind that literally every race and bloodline has a selection of tattoos, including Amarr and Caldari.
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Do you know anything about the naming tattoos or other non-Voluval tattoos? I checked evelopedia but couldn't find anything very specific.
Namely, I'm interested in some Tribal Name tattoo for a possible background story for Anslo. Nothing major, just an interesting side story of his.
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Do you know anything about the naming tattoos or other non-Voluval tattoos? I checked evelopedia but couldn't find anything very specific.
Namely, I'm interested in some Tribal Name tattoo for a possible background story for Anslo. Nothing major, just an interesting side story of his.
Information on them is available in the Chronicle called "Tattoos" (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Tattoos_(Chronicle)). You should keep in mind that the Minmatar may not have a tattoo for a Gallente name like "Anslo", thus rendering his naming tattoo either a meaningless forgery or something worse.
Now, assuming all things are fair for Anslo... and he's gotten a legit Minmatar tattoo that means something equally legit... he's still going to get some angry responses from other Minmatar. Two reasons on that.
1.) Not all Minmatar think the same thing. while someone moderate and friendly like Ava might approve, you might have some other Minmatar roll up his sleeves and take a swing. IC, opinions vary between the person. In the end, at first glance, Anslo is a Gallente who's wearing a Minmatar tattoo.
2.) Most players OOC are trained to see Gallente wearing Matari tattoos in a poor light, and will have their characters react accordingly. It's a stereotype of Gallente cultural mocking that comes directly from PF, and so you can expect that others will assume you're following that trope. You'll need to be vigilant in reminding players that these are legit tattoos... but you still have problem #1 to deal with. Convincing the characters.
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It depends. There's no Minmatar hegemony or unified view of things like this.
I asume you've read the Tattoos (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Tattoos_(Chronicle)) chronicle, yes?
A Minmatar cannot bestow upon herself just any tattoo. In some cases she may be able to influence styling and shape, but she cannot add a tattoo without having first earned the right. Inking a tattoo upon yourself without permission is considered a grave crime and offenders are subject to severe judicial punishment.
[....]
The Gallente find the culture of tattoos somewhat barbaric and uncivilized, and early on tried to persuade their Minmatar neighbors to drop this old custom and embrace their future as a civilized nation. Their efforts to this end were initially met with polite denials and later with derision, but interestingly the Gallente youth now find the custom fascinating. Indeed, it is not uncommon to see young Gallente teenagers sporting tribal and gang motifs lifted from their Minmatar peers, symbols of whose true meaning they have little to no knowledge. This can evoke anything between high derision and outright hostility when those so inked encounter true Minmatar.
If I were to generalise I'd say that if it's clearly not a Minmatar design then it's your business. If it is a Minmatar design and you're in Matari space, there's an issue. How that issue will be handled is up to the tribe and individuals involved.
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So if it was a more benign but meaningful Matari tattoo, such as a sub-clan's tattoo given to him for his assistance in something very important to them, it could still elicit some strong negative reactions.
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So if it was a more benign but meaningful Matari tattoo, such as a sub-clan's tattoo given to him for his assistance in something very important to them, it could still elicit some strong negative reactions.
Yes.
My reading of things is that a sub-clan wouldn't "give" its own marking: bearing that just means you are (or are mistakenly claiming to be) a member of the sub-clan.
I note that there is -- or was when I was aware of things -- a strand of Matari RP that's pretty dismissive of clans that "adopt" people indiscriminately.
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A Gallente wearing a Minmatar tattoo is going to be seen as engaging in cultural appropriation. The Federation as a whole has a reputation of treating other's cultures as an entertainment product. The Minmatar are highly protective of their culture.
You'll get some negative first reactions from Minmatar players, and even if you have a good excuse, some of them aren't going to budge. Others might be more chill about it.
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The best you could probably hope for, though, would be the reaction that white folks with tattoos of random Han characters get when they go to Japan.
"Nice... *snicker-snicker* ...tattoo..."
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Tattoos mean more to a Minmatar than a life time supply of T2 duct tape and beer. The mere presence of a voluval mark can determine an individuals status for the rest of their lives, as well as effect their future generations.
However, not all tattoos are of that ritual. Some are reminders of battles, life events, families, births, deaths, and so on and so forth. But each has a meaning for them. It makes sense that a Matari person would be offended at the idea of someone (lolGallente) using tattoos as a type of fashion. But is that disdain for extra-cultural use of a tradition held dear by the Minmatar limited to just meaninglessness or over all use despite meaning?
I ask because, ICly, Anslo now has a tattoo that, to him, has meaning and importance. So far one Minmatar ICly knows about it and approves. They key to the approval was that there was a purpose, that it wasn't just for looks. So I ask this to Minmatar RPers here.
Would a Gallentean be looked down on for getting a tattoo at all, or only if it was meaningless? I do not ask so that I can adjust my RP to not rustle feathers (I'm not getting rid of his tattoo), but more for my own interest and intrigue.
Do it ingame and find out ?
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So if it was a more benign but meaningful Matari tattoo, such as a sub-clan's tattoo given to him for his assistance in something very important to them, it could still elicit some strong negative reactions.
Would guarantee a strong negative response. Minmatar have a very specific process for applying tattoos. Namely, they don't apply them (beyond the temporary naming mark) on anyone who doesn't have a voluval (and who is therefore part of the tribe/clan/etc). Therefore the only way Anslo would have been given a tattoo would have been if he worked his ass off to integrate into a clan/tribe and undergone the voluval, received his naming tattoo, and then been granted another tattoo in response to stuff he's done.
Matari take these things serious, yo.
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So if it was a more benign but meaningful Matari tattoo, such as a sub-clan's tattoo given to him for his assistance in something very important to them, it could still elicit some strong negative reactions.
Would guarantee a strong negative response. Minmatar have a very specific process for applying tattoos. Namely, they don't apply them (beyond the temporary naming mark) on anyone who doesn't have a voluval (and who is therefore part of the tribe/clan/etc). Therefore the only way Anslo would have been given a tattoo would have been if he worked his ass off to integrate into a clan/tribe and undergone the voluval, received his naming tattoo, and then been granted another tattoo in response to stuff he's done.
Matari take these things serious, yo.
Good point. I'd forgotten about that part.
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Thinking on it though... I suppose it's possible that some individual clans could potentially have "friends of the tribe/clan" tattoos that are granted to outsiders. Not sure on that, though.
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Thinking on it though... I suppose it's possible that some individual clans could potentially have "friends of the tribe/clan" tattoos that are granted to outsiders. Not sure on that, though.
Crux of the matter. I need to find out if this is PF or not. Thanks for the info everyone! Back to research.
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Pretty sure it's not in PF; I was just theorizing. I don't think it's that great of a stretch to incorporate into player lore, though, but more-longterm Matari RPers would know better than me.
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Anslo, I think if your character received a matari tattoo, it would have the intended significance if it was earned. However, be prepared for many Matari characters to have a negative reaction. They will likely either believe it's another case of a Gallente getting a "cool looking" matari tattoo, or they will insist that your character didn't/couldn't earn it.
I know Tabor has interacted with two non-matari who have tried to integrate into minmatar society and had tattoos. He was dismissive to one who had married into a minmatar family, insisting that it didn't matter. She would never be Minmatar. The other, a caldari who simply showed up with marks, he was outright hostile to. It's probably not the most enlightened mindset, but that's how my clannish, tribal, character treats outsiders who he feels cheapen his culture.
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I think we can mark Tabor down for the "negative reaction" column ;P
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Ava would be somewhat offended, but would not respond with hostility. Many would. Ava is pretty protective about tattoos, and most aspects of culture, but she isnt one to go "Rawr! Die!" over it, usually.
I have never heard of any "friend of clan" sort of tattoos in PF, so no idea if such things do or do not exist.
And yeah, I like to believe that Minnies giggle when a Gallentean walks by with his/her "Minmatar" tattoo, that says something like "Eat at Jim's", "Live Bait Sold Here", or "Miss Sparkles' Baby Poodle"
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Tattoos are not unique to the Matari. As an example I got the impression the Intaki make use of them themselves. Especially if they are supposedly a Jungle people from ancient times who still care for their culture, I can easily imagine they utilize some tattoo designs themselves. Building on this my toon has a few, all of Intaki origin. Thanks to my abysmally low amount of "face to face" RP this has never come up in any meaningful way, but any Matari giving him flak for it (or anyone else for that matter) is in for a similar treatment as other's supposedly 'mis-using' Matari symbols. Could lead to hilarity some day, but nothing so far.
I would also argue that if anyone not Matari by blood work to integrate into a clan and tribe and get any tattoos from the Matari members of said clan/tribe then any other nay-sayers have no ground to bitch, beyond intolerance, and that will change the basis of the conflict from tattoos and this Matari's intolerance towards a "non Matari" trying to integrate into Matari society.
Same as Caldari being xenophobic and bitching on people who are not Caldari by birth who commit the 'crime' of wanting to live in Caldari society. Ironicalyl the xenophibic tendencies of the Caldari seem ot be exclusive to the State as there was no problem with this until the outbreak of violence on Caldari Prime right before the last war, but that's another topic, really.
End argument is that the problem is not about tattoos or anything at that point it's about intolerance and racism towards people who are not Matari/whatever by genetics but desire to be Matari/whatever by culture.
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I, too, would counter-argument accusations against the Gallente for being "shallow" with ideas that the Minmatar are simply close-minded about sharing their culture.
It's certainly not binary, but there seems to be a consistent overlooking of the fact that the Gallente, in comparison, have willingly shared their culture with others and do not take issue with it. This may be looked at from an imperialist angle, or the more romantic angle of how the Gallente are ideally the "least racist", so do not see human artistic creations as bound to one ethnic group or culture.
I cannot remember where I read it, but the EVElopedia alludes to it somewhere.
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Thinking on it though... I suppose it's possible that some individual clans could potentially have "friends of the tribe/clan" tattoos that are granted to outsiders. Not sure on that, though.
As a rule, I'd say this is not the case, but there could be outlier clans and subtribes who do this. It could possibly be very big in banking and trade within matari culture, wherein you your clan tattoos their marks on the representative of a trade ally, but even then, by and large, it would probably be mostly restricted to those who've received their voluval. That said, if Anslo did something really epic an exception for him could be made, but it would be a big deal. There are ways to make a tattoo I think though, so that another matari would understand and would not be found offensive. Remember, matari tattoos are to some degree, a pictographic language, so you could explain what the tattoo is and what it is for within the tattoo. Its not like anslo has "loving mother of 5" tattooed across his forehead.
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Esna's Signature quote sums up my opinions on the subject. (http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?action=profile;u=26)
(I believe the quote comes from a Muck Raker thread on Eve-O)
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Origin might have been Gutter Press, but a recurring thing mentioned on the IGS and in "The Summit", are two Gallente street gangs, both sport Minmatar tribal symbology.
The "This Way Up"s and the "I'm with Stupid ->"s.
It's just asking for an adaptation of "West Side Story"...
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Origin might have been Gutter Press, but a recurring thing mentioned on the IGS and in "The Summit", are two Gallente street gangs, both sport Minmatar tribal symbology.
The "This Way Up"s and the "I'm with Stupid ->"s.
It's just asking for an adaptation of "West Side Story"...
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Link me to the relevant threads/chatlogs. This sounds amazing.
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Origin might have been Gutter Press, but a recurring thing mentioned on the IGS and in "The Summit", are two Gallente street gangs, both sport Minmatar tribal symbology.
The "This Way Up"s and the "I'm with Stupid ->"s.
It's just asking for an adaptation of "West Side Story"...
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Link me to the relevant threads/chatlogs. This sounds amazing.
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=1395401
A mention of the "I'm with Stupid ->"
also:
[ 2011.07.08 17:27:14 ] Louella Dougans > There was a thing on the IGS about tattoos
[ 2011.07.08 17:27:34 ] Louella Dougans > gutter press, reported some gallente teens getting tribal markings and stuff.
[ 2011.07.08 17:27:36 ] Seriphyn Inhonores > Besides, plenty of Gallentean teenagers that wear Minmatar tattoos because, you know, they're actually Minmatar...
[ 2011.07.08 17:27:47 ] Ava Starfire > And many are not.
[ 2011.07.08 17:27:49 ] Louella Dougans > the artist was writing "I'm with Stupid --->" and stuff on them though.
[ 2011.07.08 17:28:02 ] Kybernetes Moros > People with tattoos they don't know the meaning of.
[ 2011.07.08 17:28:05 ] Ava Starfire > Im sorry you have a problem with the fact that I dislike people using my culture as a fasion statement.
[ 2011.07.08 17:28:06 ] Kybernetes Moros > Stop the freakin' presses.
[ 2011.07.08 17:28:26 ] Louella Dougans > so there's gangs of street toughs with minmatar writing that says "this way up" and "slippery when wet" and "no user serviceable parts inside" and stuff on them.
[ 2011.07.08 17:28:36 ] Ava Starfire > /emote snorts > Yes, heh
[ 2011.07.08 17:28:44 ] Kalaratiri > /emote starts laughing
[ 2011.07.08 17:28:49 ] Ava Starfire > I have seen some great ones, and they had no idea what they said
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As hilarious as that is, I have to ask... why would there be culturally significant tattoos that say these things? Do Minmatar tattoo their cardboard boxes and toasters?
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As hilarious as that is, I have to ask... why would there be culturally significant tattoos that say these things? Do Minmatar tattoo their cardboard boxes and toasters?
Of course. Who would put books in a cardboard box destined by its voluval to carry clothes ? That way lies madness.
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Well, considering Uraniae has a Matari inspired tattoo, I figure I can go ahead on comment on this.
Uraniae has an Amarrian tattoo design on her face and a Matari design on her wrist. The Amarrian one I never bothered to think of anything truly significant for its meaning. However the Matari one is a wholly player-fiction creation. It is a mark that is supposed to commemorate and honor a loved one that has been lost. I imagine that due to the nature of the mark it might actually be permissible to have it applied before having a voluval (in the case of Matari orphans perhaps) and due to the more personal nature of honoring the dead it might be a "more acceptable" sort of mark for non-matari. Again, there is no PF to really back this up.
Uraniae went through a process ICly to inquire about this sort of tattoo, asking any Matari that were on polite terms with her. I even took the issue to the IGS to get some more opinions from folks I don't normally interact with, and yes there was some opposition to the idea. The majority of that opposition came from a misunderstanding and miscommunication, people thinking Uraniae was going to attempt to get a voluval, which was blatantly untrue. The vast majority of people who were crying foul over the IGS or various in-game chat channels were actually pretty quick to say it was possibly acceptable after they learned the nature of the tattoo Uraniae was trying to get.
So I think the thing to do is for Anslo to inquire through various in-character mediums and explain what he is after and why to the various roleplayers who play the part of Matari spiritual authorities.
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I think the difference here (As Ava sees it, ICly) is between tattoos of minmatar styling, and outright tattoos that mark one as a member of a Minmatar tribe and clan. A tattoo on the wrist, or arm, or whatever? I doubt she cares, as long as it is tasteful and does not lay claim to anything the wearer actually cannot lay claim to. Gallente kids with naming marks tattooed on their faces? Yeah. That's a bit different.
One is a bit of art inspired by, or even in honor of, another culture. The other marks one as a member of said cultural group. Small difference.
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As hilarious as that is, I have to ask... why would there be culturally significant tattoos that say these things? Do Minmatar tattoo their cardboard boxes and toasters?
Toasters are chipped for identification, not tattooed. It is known.
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Esna's Signature quote sums up my opinions on the subject. (http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?action=profile;u=26)
(I believe the quote comes from a Muck Raker thread on Eve-O)
Ack, I missed this.
No, the quote is from the discussion thread on Backstage from when the Chronicle "Tattoos" was released. I'll see if I can find it.
EDIT: Found it. This thread may be relevant. (http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=1137.0)
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Thanks a lot for the feedback everyone. Basically, my idea was to have some kind of tattoo Anslo earned during his two year disappearance while he was wandering around with baseliners after his piracy stint post-escape. So far from the posts I've read, the only way for Anslo to have gotten any kind of meaningful Matari tattoo would have to be either something major enough to really earn it, or something innocuous like a tribal name tattoo.
At this point I'm not TOO sure how to proceed, but this feedback is really great. I'll try to flesh out an arc for it later on I suppose. Please feel free to submit more comments though!
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I'm not a Minmatar RP'er so take my input with a grain - or ton, of crude, grain-sized transparent crystals.
Building on what others have said here and my own previous comment I really see no reason why Anslo could not have earned a tattoo of some kind. Matari are as diverse as anyone in the Federation so, while some Matari (like the ones he frequented, for instance) may not take it too seriously that a non-Matari earned a mark of serious respect among them for some great deed or other, other Matari will take offence with him having the tattoo AT ALL, simply because he's not a Matari by blood. There is likely always going to be people like that among humans, I see no reason why this is not so thousands of years into the future.
However, some Matari disagreeing in principle is irrelevant to Anslo's earning of this mark. If a group of Matari of some stripe or another considered Anslo valuable enough to have earned it, then that's that. In fact saying no to receive this mark might be taken as a sign of disrespect in itself (even if I really hate the "disrespecting my gift by not taking it" trope myself) and his defense in the face of critique will always be "I earned this from your kin, back the fuck off or take it up with them."
End of the line is, if Anslo earned it legitimately, why should he bend over backwards to the opinion of some intolerant Matari? Why is the words of a Matari automatically more valuable than his own, especially when the deed speaks for itself?
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Bloodbird personifies Gallente thinking on this matter.
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Bloodbird personifies Gallente thinking on this matter.
I figured as much, since I completely agreed with him :p
But the point still remains that it'd be offensive to Minmatar unless there's a damn good reason he has it. I try to play Anslo as a very culturally aware person. He doesn't just adopt a culture for funsies. He studied and learns about it and respects it, same with the Matari. He wouldn't just get the tattoo because he thought it would make him a cool kid.
For the Minmatar RP'ers, what would constitute a justifiable reason for Anslo having one? In my mind, I had a story idea where he met with a guy/girl who was apparently supposed to be a the next shaman of his particular clan/family, but just couldn't do it because he was much much younger and in his mind, the life of a shaman didn't appeal to him. This leads to the person and Anslo talking and forming a bond before Anslo convinces the would-be shaman to return and help his folks.
The other (maybe more realistic story) would be a mark of protection. After ditching the Fed FW scene (and what happened to him) and hiding himself, he tried to find a shaman while he was still lucid/peaceful/willing to seek help. They two discussed things for a long time, leading to Anslo staying with said shaman and learning from them about how to calm his mind (as he was damn near psycho during his early years post-Fed FW). This culminated in Anslo learning how to do this and taking his leave from the shaman to keep travelling and learning about the people in New Eden. Before leaving, the shaman gave him a protective mark/tattoo specific to his tribe as a parting gift.
Sooo....?
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I don't think either of those would really qualify as significant to get given a tattoo as an outsider, even assuming a tribe/clan had "friends of the tribe/clan" tattoos. They're both on a very small, individual level, rather than clan-wide. I'd expect such tattoos, if they exist at all, to not be awarded for a single isolated event (unless that event was massive scale, like saving an entire clan from certain destruction, etc), but rather for years of positive interaction with a clan to the point that they become "part of the family". If you've read Ava's stories, the John character for example is more the kind of character I'd see getting one--an outsider who chooses to live among a clan for years and basically becomes part of that clan in all but name.