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[Mizhara]

Knew that was coming. It's of course convenient to have moronic rules like this, in spite of the fact that you very much can do things very much horribly wrong, since that effectively leaves him to decide where the limits are, since the only "RP Police" around here is to be him.

Silver, as usual, you are just flat out wrong. Your moderation is shit and the ruleset is moronic to begin with.

Calling it "RP Policing" to voice opinions on this kind of topic, especially since it's quite literally one where we're wading deep into the unknown when it comes to capsuleer capabilities, is frankly offensive and very much non constructive. Chill on the mod abuse, will ya?

[Silver Night]

[mod]Moved this to the correct forum. [/mod]

There are many people who, over the years, have felt that the rules here aren't rules they like. But they are the rules. Happily these days forums are falling out of style anyway - so you have many avenues other than this to express your opinion in whatever way you'd like. However, when you express it here, it still has to follow the rules. Even if you feel like they are moronic.

[Mizhara]

According to who's interpretation of the rules? Oh right, the actual RP Police's views.

You know, that line you had about 'chasing people out of the community' etc? Here's the thing: I've never been able to police fuck all, least of all RP. I've never held mod here, the in-game channels etc. The absolutely worst thing I've ever been able to do to other RPers, new or old, is have an opinion at them. I can sling words in their direction. As an individual. Well, Autocannons in-game, but there too I've got no more power than literally any other player. Less, in most cases.

I've never been able to "RP Police" anything at all. I've just offered words, most often ones inviting more in return. You know, actually talking about something. You though...

... how many times, in these very sub-forums, or elsewhere, have you taken away their words? How many discussions on RP have you silenced and buried? Go ahead, go look at the memberlists and start counting Grey Accounts. All those RPers who had views and opinions, and then had them silenced and taken away. How many Catacombs posts were blue, then turned grey because you and yours chased them out of the community with your tyrant RP Police bullshit?

So yeah, be as arrogant as you've always been, but sit there and snidely spew bullshit about "RP Policing" when you're literally the only person here who has consistently had both the power and consistently used it to stifle RP discussions and "Police RP"? That's just rather disingenuous.

I've only ever had the ability to offer words and a voice. Not much policing I can do with that. You've been very keen on using your powers of tyranny though, and that's exceedingly well documented on both these subboards and the Catacombs.

[Silver Night]

This is a OOC forum about RP with a set of rules and guidelines that is years old. Which you agree to when you sign up. No one is preventing you from saying what you want literally anywhere else on the entire internet.

Q: What's the difference between debate and argument?
A: Debate or discussion involves people putting forward their ideas and opinions. Argument is when people start fighting over whose ideas or opinions are 'right'. For example, if you find yourself responding to a post with anything along the lines of 'You're wrong, because...', stop and think. Don't sit there working out what's wrong with someone else's idea. Propose your own, and tell us all the ways in which it's awesome. Everybody wins a discussion: nobody wins an argument.

Q: But they ARE wrong! On the internet!
A: Disagreeing with you doesn't make them wrong. Sometimes people do make errors of fact, but its possible to point that out without asshattery. For example, if Joe Bloggs says that Fedos are kept by the Amarr to hunt down escaped slaves, you might say: "I got a different impression from here." and link to the EVO Chron. Also, remember how big the EVE Cluster is. Someone has a different approach to something that the PF is silent on? Think about the difference between Fiji and Siberia, and how many cultures there are on this one planet. Now multiply that by every planet in every system in every constellation in every ... you get the picture.

Q: So you want us to act all lovey-dovey?
A: Yes. Deal with it.

Q: Doesn't being polite to people I disagree with make me a hypocrite?
A: No. It makes you a grown-up.

Q: Isn't that against my right to free speech?
A: Right again. Deal with that, too.

Q: Isn't all this subjective?
A: Yes. The Mods do their best to be fair, but inevitably, this is a subjective standard. Another thing for you to Deal With.

Q: What about free and frank debate?
A: Strange as it may seem, given some of the forums on the internet, but it is possible to have an honest exchange of views without being rude, hostile, offensive, aggressive or bullying. That kind of behaviour destroys communities, virtual and otherwise, and Will Not Be Tolerated.

Q: But I totally know more about EVE and RP than that idiot who just posted!
A: Good for you. Now demonstrate that you also know more about being a grown-up. Your personal experience in EVE and outside it can inform your opinion and provide you with examples for your position, but it doesn't magically make your opinion worth more than someone else's. There are veteran EVE players, life-long table-top gamers, expert LARPers, published authors and many others in the EVE RP community. We all bring something different to the table: so share what you bring rather than trying to use it to knock everyone else's plate to the floor.

Q: How can I tell if my post is out of line or not?
A: It's a safe bet that if you finish typing and think to yourself: "Hah! I showed HIM!" you should probably not post. Other danger signs: personal attacks on the player, including the player's style of RP (i.e. "of course you think that, you RP an Amarr"), insinuations that anyone who disagrees with you is a moron.

Q: So I can't disagree with anyone's RP?
A: Sure you can disagree. Just do it politely, I'll even venture to say nicely, and remember that they have as much right to their opinion as you have to yours. For example: Player A writes: "I see the Intaki as space hippies." Player B answers: "Of course they aren't space hippies, there are no hippies in Eve." That would be the WRONG way to answer. The RIGHT way would be something like "Really? I see the Intaki as more techno-buddhists. That's how I play my character, but hey, it's a big Cluster, right?"

Q: What do I do if someone posts something that's out of line and I can show how wrong they are?
A: DO NOT RESPOND TO FLAMES OR TROLLS. Report the post to the staff by clicking the report button () at the bottom right corner of the post, close the thread and leave it alone. We ask everybody to help in keeping the culture here courteous, and that means not responding to people trying to draw others into pointless flamefests.

Q: What else can I do?
A: Glad you asked! You can remember that people have different ideas, opinions and approaches to RP, and be considerate of those differences. You can not take evidence of those differences as a personal attack. Also, you can remember that people have bad days sometimes and not be too thin-skinned when someone makes a post you need to report, or someone reports your post. You can practice saying "Sorry, I was out of line" when it was you who just had a bad day. You can give yourself five minutes to cool down and think before posting in anger. Most importantly, you can remember that this forum is a place for people to come together and talk, not for one person or another to score points.

That's among the things you sign up for when you post here. If you don't like the rules I encourage you - and I am not being facetious here - to start your own forum where people can post the way you want. That's how Backstage started, a number of us didn't like the moderation (or lack thereof) on Chatsubo and started it.

But if you want to post here, then follow the rules.

[Mizhara]

Really? I wouldn't have known any of that, except you know, being more active during the creation of Backstage on Scagga's interim forum than you were. Is this really all you can do? Talk down to people?

I am well aware what the forum is, and I'm well aware what the rules are, and what the FAQ is and so on. I also know that you, shit mod as you've always been, perpetually interpret the rules however you want, and stifle discussion and debate constantly whenever it's something you don't like.

"RP Police" indeed.

You can be an authoritarian all you want. I can do nothing to stop you from RP Policing. Doesn't mean I'll just happily accept your bullshit interpretation of it, nor how over the years you've been swinging your mod dick around to silence those you don't like.

[Samira Kernher]

Quite frankly in agreement. The 'You're doing it wrong' rule has always been the worst rule on Backstage, and a rule I for one intend to never mod against (or most things... most discussions will resolve themselves without any outside tampering necessary). Criticism is necessary. Being able to challenge ideas to try and help people and roleplay grow is a good thing. The thread got a little warm, sure, but quite tame by past standards and there was nothing there that wasn't good for the discussion being had. There was nothing there that needed modding.

Backstage has always been accused of overzealous modding, and that modding style is as much a cause of its own dwindling activity as the general dwindling of RP in EVE. Backstage has driven off many good posters over the years because it is so eager to play the mod police. Half the reason I agreed to join the mod team was to provide the forum with a mod who isn't going to stomp all over good discussions just because they get a little heated. I mean, jeez, this forum has finally started to get active again, and yet every single time a thread dares to attract attention, it gets modded. That is not conducive to good discussion.

[kalaratiri]

Moderation would be less necessary if people were capable of offering their opinion in a polite manner.

[Samira Kernher]

It's not necessary. Regardless of how polite or not a comment is, if the points it makes are valid, then it is a valid contribution to the discussion. Debates can and will get heated, but that's not a sign of a bad debate. Only when a post contributes nothing but personal attacks should it be removed.

[MakotoPriano]

"When you have to kill a man, it costs nothing to be polite."

In that very thread, we already had people say they felt actively under attack because 'they were doing it wrong' according to elite RP police. While on one hand we should always be aware that we are all prone to being overly sensitive about perceived attacks, on the other hand there is a point where debate and discussion does indeed become attack.

Is asking people to try to maintain a basic level of civility to try and preserve an open community actually a problem?

[Mizhara]

Yes.

What was offered in that thread was well within any reasonable interpretation of civility, especially given the severity of the situation in question and given how concerns were consistently ignored rather than responded to. Instead, the responses were invoking conspiracy theories about "RP Elite Inner Circles", claims of bullying and so on. With that level of dishonest discourse, having a rougher tone is hardly lacking in civility in comparison.

If 'civil' is to be dishonest and accusatory while avoiding harsh tones, then being civil is very much a problem for any community that wants to be open rather than some self-victimizing "bully victim" echo chamber. I challenge you to find a place in that discussion where 'debate and discussion becomes an attack'. I can quote quite a few direct accusations of fairly severe personal kinds though, which are conveniently ignored when cries of 'civility' come along.

[Silver Night]

It's not necessary. Regardless of how polite or not a comment is, if the points it makes are valid, then it is a valid contribution to the discussion. Debates can and will get heated, but that's not a sign of a bad debate. Only when a post contributes nothing but personal attacks should it be removed.

Except this is explicitly not how the rules here are set up. Which is the reason I quoted the FAQ, twice. That's the exact point it makes - that the way we communicate can have an effect on what we communicate and further an effect on other people and how welcome they feel in participating. For example, Miz's post above continues to be dismissive of the views of other people and claim they are in bad faith rather than consider other viewpoints. That's not useful and isn't the sort of thing that contributes to useful dialog.

On the flip side, if indeed the words you use don't matter, then it doesn't matter what words you use as long as they convey the information, and there should be no reason not to use polite words.

If Backstage dies because people are upset they can't be rude to each other, then it dies. vov

The site is provided as a service to the community at a financial cost to me. If people end up not using it, then that means it's a service they don't need - and that's okay. Contrary to what Miz posits above, I don't actually find the power to move people's posts from one forum section to another forum section all that intoxicating. My goal with keeping it going has always been to do what I can to help the RP community be more active (which benefits me personally in that I like there to be an RP community to interact with). Maybe it isn't the best way to do that, but it's the way I've decided to do it.

As I already said, other people are welcome to decide on ways of their own they would like to help the community. That doesn't mean deciding that Backstage should be something different from what it has always very explicitly been.

[Samira Kernher]

Except this is explicitly not how the rules here are set up. Which is the reason I quoted the FAQ, twice. That's the exact point it makes - that the way we communicate can have an effect on what we communicate and further an effect on other people and how welcome they feel in participating.

I did not see anything that broke a forum rule, myself. The only "rule" that was broken was the 'You're doing it wrong' guideline. A guideline which, frankly, leads to some really disingenuous stuff. I generally agree with 'try to post with civility', absolutely, but criticism is not a bad thing, and it isn't always served to waffle around about it. By the standards of the 'You're doing it wrong' guideline, someone could be RPing a bridge captain in space and treating their capsule as an escape pod and we wouldn't be able to call it out here because of YDIW (or at least wouldn't be able to call it out without twisting and contorting your post to make it a 'suggestion' instead of simply saying 'sorry but you're a capsuleer by lore').

And speaking about making people feel welcome: When a person is trying to contribute meaningfully to a discussion, overzealous moderation doesn't make them feel welcome. It makes them feel like their voice isn't allowed to be heard.

For example, Miz's post above continues to be dismissive of the views of other people and claim they are in bad faith rather than consider other viewpoints. That's not useful and isn't the sort of thing that contributes to useful dialog.

Why not? It's a legitimate point. There was a lot of kneejerking in that thread that helped contribute to a heated debate, to the point that one of the posters apologized for it. By a strict interpretation of the rules (in terms of what counts as an 'attack') there's a lot more posts in that thread that I'd moderate than just the ones you did. So do you eviscerate the whole thread in modding it, or do you let people come to a resolution on their own terms (which, I think, ultimately they did)?

People need to be trusted to handle things on their own. They need to be allowed to be challenged, even if that is sometimes a little beyond what is civil, without requiring someone to hold their hands. That isn't to say that negative behavior should be encouraged, absolutely not, but shielding people from it doesn't help them to grow and it doesn't help the discussion move forward.