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Author Topic: FW LP Tax  (Read 8254 times)

The Rook

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Re: FW LP Tax
« Reply #45 on: 01 Mar 2016, 09:34 »

People may not join corporations based on their needs, especially early on in their EVE life, but they will stay where they're enjoying themselves and where they get something out of it according to the old formula: time/effort in, fun out.
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Ria Nieyli

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Re: FW LP Tax
« Reply #46 on: 01 Mar 2016, 10:08 »

Ok, but if you're an active contributor to the system, rather than just a beneficiary, you're spending time/effort for someone else's fun. It causes burnout, it causes bittervetting, elitism, you name it. People don't want to be treated like second class citizens, especially in a hobby.
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The Rook

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Re: FW LP Tax
« Reply #47 on: 01 Mar 2016, 10:18 »

Everyone's free to use their own calculations for their effort/fun ratio as this is highly subjective, both on individual preferences and to the groups in question.
Furthermore, odds are that if you're a top contributor you're also utilizing more than someone not spending his time logged in.

Of course, people like recognition for their efforts. This is up for the group in question to handle. In EVE, unlike IRL, a corporation can not force people to join (there's no unemployment in EVE) or stay joined (and active). If it stops providing enough people will lose interest and wander off or cease playing and the corporation will wither and die.
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Utari Onzo

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Re: FW LP Tax
« Reply #48 on: 01 Mar 2016, 13:14 »

Some people, myself included, do also actually enjoy contributing and providing fun for other players. Not everyone's view on what is fun is the same. Not everyone's view on what they want out of a corp is the same either.
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Ria Nieyli

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Re: FW LP Tax
« Reply #49 on: 02 Mar 2016, 09:47 »

Everyone's free to use their own calculations for their effort/fun ratio as this is highly subjective, both on individual preferences and to the groups in question.
Furthermore, odds are that if you're a top contributor you're also utilizing more than someone not spending his time logged in.

As a raw number, you might be eating up more than someone who only logs in to pvp, but proportionally his ISK ratio would be way worse than yours.

Of course, people like recognition for their efforts. This is up for the group in question to handle. In EVE, unlike IRL, a corporation can not force people to join (there's no unemployment in EVE) or stay joined (and active). If it stops providing enough people will lose interest and wander off or cease playing and the corporation will wither and die.

Yeah, and that's the thing - the harder you fleece people, the faster they lose interest in being part of your thing. And we've all seen what happens to max fun per hour organisations.

Some people, myself included, do also actually enjoy contributing and providing fun for other players. Not everyone's view on what is fun is the same. Not everyone's view on what they want out of a corp is the same either.

But there are other, better, ways of contributing and providing fun for people than just ISK. Organise an event, run a fleet, you can teach them stuff too, etc. etc.
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The Rook

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Re: FW LP Tax
« Reply #50 on: 02 Mar 2016, 16:28 »

That's just like, your opinion, man.
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Morwen Lagann

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Re: FW LP Tax
« Reply #51 on: 02 Mar 2016, 16:55 »

What is the case for you is not for everyone else. Just because you won't use an option that is provided because you don't like it isn't a valid reason to say that it shouldn't exist when other people who do like it and will make use of it.

That's the point of the word optional. As in, you don't have to use it if you don't want to.

So instead of talking out of your ass and telling the rest of us who are okay with the concept and would make active use of such an optional feature that it's bad for EVE (it's not; it's bad for YOUR specific style of play based on YOUR sensitivities, which is entirely negated by it being optional) and that it shouldn't even be considered by CCP, let alone implemented, you should perhaps get over yourself and accept that not every feature in EVE is meant for everyone to use.

I don't fucking touch sov, or POS, or anything of that sort. I don't want to - I don't enjoy the gameplay offered. It doesn't mean I get to stamp my feet and scream at the top of my lungs that any development on it is bad for the game.

Which is exactly what you're doing.
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Ria Nieyli

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Re: FW LP Tax
« Reply #52 on: 02 Mar 2016, 17:15 »

What the fuck is your problem?
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Veiki

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Re: FW LP Tax
« Reply #53 on: 02 Mar 2016, 18:11 »

Dunning-Kruger persecution complex activating in 5...4...3...
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Ria Nieyli

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Re: FW LP Tax
« Reply #54 on: 02 Mar 2016, 18:14 »

Sure if you point out where I'm screaming and stamping my feet or talking out of my ass.
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Aelisha

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Re: FW LP Tax
« Reply #55 on: 02 Mar 2016, 19:05 »

I believe, from my reading of the discussion, that the others are attempting to point out that the existence of a tax does not premeditate the enforcement of a tax.

Bottom-up funding has its place: such corporations survive by benevolence (taxation agreed upon by members with transparent benefits) or malice (exploitation of newcomers/less observant pilots who leave quickly, but might bring additional tax-cows in before they go). Their success depends on a variety of factors, but benevolence is the long-term winner due to sustainability and transparency inviting comment form the more numerically gifted line members (who may rise through the ranks as a result).

Similarly, top down (my corp model) is very effective. Paying members for work done is a matter of negotiation and transparency, but the ISK flow is reversed. Similarly it can be benevolent or the ISK is essentially a paltry appeal to the 'employability' desires of vulnerable pilots (malicious).

These are independent of the factor you, Ria, bring into the equation - the concept of service. Service through time spent is arguably the most precious resource in EVE and highly active contributing corp members (especially those with few roles nor desire for them) are fought over quite literally. However, as I have pointed out the concept of service is independent of ISK income. It may contribute ISK or drain ISK, depending on the activity. If self funded (by the beneficent pilot) it may have no net effect.

Realistically a corporation will be the sum of choices made regarding the expenditure of time and isk, and the accumulation of players, talent and (you guessed it) ISK. ISK, used in this discussion, refers to any income stream - so minerals/materials/moons/LP (anything that can be taxed by mechanic or by domination of the source). The decision to tax or not to tax is freely made, from 0-100% and some corporations (houses of cards) fall by their ill-intentioned over taxation of line members. Others prosper by feeding back in a manner that exceeds the perceived loss of income that taxation represents.

Players may game the system as you, Ria, have mentioned. They may have tax-evasion corps, and some CEOs (like myself) won;t mind this. Others that do will soon learn a harsh lesson in the woeful inadequacy of API checks to enforce some fiscal regime. And so even after a tax is applied to a resource - it is purely optional. You can participate in it in good faith (if you feel it is worthy), leave, or evade at your leisure.

So my question to you, directly, would be:

"Considering that you can choose not to tax a thing (LP for example), what is the downside of there being an option to tax it?"

My thought is that the addition of a multitude of taxes (hello Citadels) will provide options. Poorly executed they will annoy, wardecs may fly or stations lie fallow (and corps burn) as people say no to the tax. Well planned and communicated, they could form the foundation of community investment (market seeding/free-ship fleets funded by loyal custom or membership). Yes these things can already be achieved through other means, but honestly, what is the downside of choice?

To me that is the crux of the matter. Choice. Having it, even if that choice can be a bad one to make in some scenarios, opens up the sandbox a little more. It allows more emergent game play as movements around the issue rise and fall. And if all it takes is an additional variable and function in a class within the game code, I think that's a small cost for a world of choices.
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Ria Nieyli

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Re: FW LP Tax
« Reply #56 on: 02 Mar 2016, 23:33 »

To answer your question, I don't think that you can view the LP tax by itself. For me it's part of a package that's going to shift corp funding models strictly to bottom-up. This thing is the foot in the door. So, yes, LP tax by itself is an option. However, it will ultimately come at the expense of another option, the loss of which I consider worse than the benefits gained by the choice whether some people tax LP or not.

Yes, it is a sandbox, but there are walls and they are moving. You have no guarantee that they'll leave you with as much space once they're done.

As for citadels, paying for the services they'd offer already exists one way or another ingame. Those existing options are mostly spread out in outposts right now, but as those get phased out in favour of citadels, it will just open them up to lowsec and wormholes. It will increase parity between areas somewhat, but the point is that paying for those services is much more akin to giving money to your CEO so she can keep POSes in the wormhole you live in fueled.
« Last Edit: 03 Mar 2016, 00:09 by Colonel Nieyli »
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kalaratiri

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Re: FW LP Tax
« Reply #57 on: 03 Mar 2016, 02:51 »

It will increase parity between areas somewhat, but the point is that paying for those services is much more akin to giving money to your CEO so she can keep POSes in the wormhole you live in fueled.

Isn't this what current tax models are already used for? How would an LP tax be any different?
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Aelisha

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Re: FW LP Tax
« Reply #58 on: 03 Mar 2016, 05:09 »

To answer your question, I don't think that you can view the LP tax by itself. For me it's part of a package that's going to shift corp funding models strictly to bottom-up. This thing is the foot in the door. So, yes, LP tax by itself is an option. However, it will ultimately come at the expense of another option, the loss of which I consider worse than the benefits gained by the choice whether some people tax LP or not.

Yes, it is a sandbox, but there are walls and they are moving. You have no guarantee that they'll leave you with as much space once they're done.

As for citadels, paying for the services they'd offer already exists one way or another ingame. Those existing options are mostly spread out in outposts right now, but as those get phased out in favour of citadels, it will just open them up to lowsec and wormholes. It will increase parity between areas somewhat, but the point is that paying for those services is much more akin to giving money to your CEO so she can keep POSes in the wormhole you live in fueled.

I guess the fundamental disagreement we have here, is that I do not subscribe to the fatalistic notion that the implementation of a choice is a move to restrict choice in the future.

if the public at large choose the bottom up model over all alternatives, that's the free market of ideas in motion. Ways of life are pressured out by more successful memes and trends all the time, usually by popular demand (the old way is still possible, but so few agree with adherents that it is a dying practice). I doubt CCP will stop 0 tax corporations, personal donations and benevolent plutocrats carrying on without a thought towards taxing their peers.

You mention: "However, it will ultimately come at the expense of another option, the loss of which I consider worse than the benefits gained by the choice whether some people tax LP or not." What is this option? You mention the existence of it, but not what it is. And how is it lost? 
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Ria Nieyli

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Re: FW LP Tax
« Reply #59 on: 05 Mar 2016, 01:56 »

It will increase parity between areas somewhat, but the point is that paying for those services is much more akin to giving money to your CEO so she can keep POSes in the wormhole you live in fueled.

Isn't this what current tax models are already used for? How would an LP tax be any different?

Well, people keep tacking on SRP in the corp expenses section, so no. That's not all the current tax models are used for.

I guess the fundamental disagreement we have here, is that I do not subscribe to the fatalistic notion that the implementation of a choice is a move to restrict choice in the future.

if the public at large choose the bottom up model over all alternatives, that's the free market of ideas in motion. Ways of life are pressured out by more successful memes and trends all the time, usually by popular demand (the old way is still possible, but so few agree with adherents that it is a dying practice). I doubt CCP will stop 0 tax corporations, personal donations and benevolent plutocrats carrying on without a thought towards taxing their peers.

You mention: "However, it will ultimately come at the expense of another option, the loss of which I consider worse than the benefits gained by the choice whether some people tax LP or not." What is this option? You mention the existence of it, but not what it is. And how is it lost?

Top-down income will be getting cut from the game. Have fun.
« Last Edit: 05 Mar 2016, 02:01 by Colonel Nieyli »
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