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Author Topic: Break a leg.  (Read 2258 times)

Mizhara

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Break a leg.
« on: 03 Dec 2015, 21:37 »

As with all good things, they must come to an end. I debated where to put this post, but it didn't quite seem to fit into any of the subforums so into off-topic it goes. I feel that even though I may be one of the most moderated posters on this board, I've contributed quite nicely since the days a few of us gathered on Scagga's little sub-forum to discuss a potential new board after Chatsubo grew intolerable. Days of optimism, both cautious and with wild abandon. Careful deliberation on rulesets and how to avoid just copypasting the problem on a new template. The discussion on both boards when it went live, about hidden motives and outright hostilities. About cross posting, police states, pigdogs and we-didn't-want-you-there-anyway etc.

They were heady times, uncertain and even forging ahead into unknown territory.

We succeeded though. Damn we succeeded. Backstage should be recognized for what it was and what it is. A gigantic success from very humble and mean origins. It is easily the greatest collection of ramblings, world-building, fiction, discussion and more from the Eve RP community and it has weathered every challenge it has faced. A few of us have been around since the beginning, even if many has fallen to the wayside along the way, and many new contributors have come along since. Some of us has come, gone, come again and so on. Some have burned brightly and burned out, others have never really sparked much and some few have kept an even glow throughout the whole history of this place.

Still, an end must eventually come, and this is mine.

The Moderation Discussion board holds a few locked threads on a topic I felt warranted discussion. They certainly had the potential to turn out poorly and then locked, but hadn't reached that point yet. While the topic itself was not important enough that I'd be overly annoyed if the discussion didn't solve the issues raised, the way the discussion was stamped out before it was allowed to even occur was a step too far for me. I would even go so far as to say stamping out any talk on the subject with official moderation amounts to censorship.

I have since contacted the moderators Havohej, Morwen and Silver Night in shared PMs. Havohej largely responded with abuse, Morwen did not respond at all (but let me know why in-game, and I fully understand his position which shall remain between me and him until/if he chooses otherwise) and Silver responded with fair and thoughtful reason, even if we didn't agree on the subject. I have, by the way, taken screenshots of all those PMs just in case I need to document both what I have said and what has been said to me.

This disagreement overall on the two separate topics of moderators adhering to the same or higher standards than the users, and how such things needs to be a matter users (and moderators) can discuss openly as long as certain standards of discussion is kept to, is a little too important for me to remain a contributor on this site. The differences in opinion on this matter is a little too severe and it would be hypocritical of me to continue to as a contributor in tacit support of what I feel is an unacceptable approach by the moderation team. That said, I want to make it clear that I do respect both Morwen and Silver and the job they're volunteering for on this site. Morwen often has to take the role of the bad guy, being the most active moderator and Silver certainly strives to be reasonable and decent even in disagreements. They have earned that respect, even though they have been amazing headaches for me and I have railed and even gotten angry at the both of them at times. I still appreciate it when they do their jobs, and they almost always do the job flawlessly. This decision to leave is not even remotely about that, but about the stifling of discussions that could improve moderation or at the very least clarify situations where it is less than optimal.

As I started with above, I do feel I've contributed here. In fiction. In world-building. In shitposting, here in off-topic and elsewhere. Raising the bar and standards in the catacombs occasionally, and generally adding a touch of class and thuggery alike sometimes. Narcissistic and arrogant it may be, but I think this place will actually be a little lessened by my absence, but I can see no other option available to me as my continued presence would be a tacit approval of something I just can't approve of.

I just ask that everyone reading this sit back and remember what this place is.

A resounding success. A truly inspiring place, where people holding wildly different opinions on the mercurial and chaotic subject of RP in New Eden come together to lock horns, smooth over differences, discuss and explore the wilderness of New Eden's characters and themes, forge alliances and perform that wonderful thing that holds a special meaning to all roleplayers worth their salt...

Creation.

Of men and women. Societies and nations. Entire worlds and universes. The most simple and insignificant of thoughts.

Don't forget that this place is very much a special place, and it has become that place through a whole lot of work by a whole lot of people coming together. At first, a few in a smoke-filled room and eventually a whole line of people great and small contributing a little or a lot. Don't lose sight of how great this place can be, or take it for granted. I may not be able to contribute anymore, but that is on me and my conscience. You can.

Backstage is where the magic happens. So rehearse your lines, explore your characters, shoot the shit with your co-actors and then...

Break a leg.
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Lyn Farel

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Re: Break a leg.
« Reply #1 on: 04 Dec 2015, 03:26 »

Backstage was a forum on steroids, one of the best I have had the occasion to post in, with a lot of great people.

The community decaying as well as the atmosphere, and the mod team I feel having lost their ways somewhere in the process, doesnt make it true today in my view.

There seems to be a power struggle between the mod and the folks, and the sad thing is that there is a clear lack of willingness to admit that there is a problem, as the state of things clearly attests. Scagga created a thread himself on the matter a while back, and nobody of the admins, seemed to care.

Cling to the little power you still have if you want, plug your ears, through whatever means you need to... The ball is in your yard eventually. I am more and more considering that the team is the crux of the problem and the source of what the forum has turned into. I have so many PMs from various people, active and participating members as well as people that just got disgusted of it, that it's uncanny.

I am also considering to drop it altogether considering how obnoxious the mod team has become.

Maybe hypocritical from the most contributive member of the forum, but whatever.
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The Rook

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Re: Break a leg.
« Reply #2 on: 04 Dec 2015, 04:52 »

Casual observation regarding moderation: seeing a lack of etiquette is human but a bit disappointing in some folks as it violates the set standards in a very unsided manner. However, moderation is a thankless job.

Does this have an impact on the quality and quantity of the content discussed here?
Not really. There's not much going on beyond community members drawing lines in the sand or whining about more or less everything.  This is bittervet overflow and the reason people don't bother posting or coming back to start discussing.
A negative environment isn't inviting.
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Louella Dougans

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Re: Break a leg.
« Reply #3 on: 04 Dec 2015, 05:38 »

bye o/
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Utari Onzo

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Re: Break a leg.
« Reply #4 on: 04 Dec 2015, 07:10 »

As someone outside of all this drama over past things and former banned members, I feel confident saying I honestly don't give a flying fuck about those issues as I wasn't a part of them, nor is it my business to get involved.

Miz, what interaction I have had with you OOC (including our fanbois moment the other night over a bunch of stuff) has been pretty good overall. We haven't really interacted much IC, which is a bit sad, but none the less I hope things go well for you. If you're sticking around for eve, great, see you flip side there. If not, maybe we'll bump into each other on another game.

Regardless, forums are just forums. There's always plenty of places to shoot the shit. Backstage is nice, but it's not a be all and end all for roleplay within Eve.
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Silas Vitalia

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Re: Break a leg.
« Reply #5 on: 04 Dec 2015, 08:14 »

I'm not sure what to say, as always it's complicated.

Wish you best of luck, hit me up on steam: TakeItEasyMon

As for mods/modding, its also always complicated.  It does look different on the other side sometimes, but in general just about everyone who ever gets banned deserves it for multiple reasons, believe me I know. But mods do make mistakes and there's always room for communication improvement.

Im not involved/don't know about this latest round of stuff so no opinions on any specifics here.

This is pretty much my only tie left to eve people so the dwindling population here is always sad :/

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The Rook

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Re: Break a leg.
« Reply #6 on: 04 Dec 2015, 08:28 »

You could come back and become an avocado smuggler with us, Silas.
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Lyn Farel

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Re: Break a leg.
« Reply #7 on: 04 Dec 2015, 08:48 »

The problem Silas, is not really about who gets banned and if it's justified. Besides the banned people, I don't see a lot of people complaining there.

Also, communication improvement implies that the team is willing to listen in the first place, which wasn't exactly the case again in the last censorship show.
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Sofia Roseburn

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Re: Break a leg.
« Reply #8 on: 04 Dec 2015, 09:02 »

I've moderated a few turbonerds in my time, FHC being what it is and legitimately the most frustrating thing for me was posters trying to tell me how to interpret and apply the rules of the forum. At the end of the day, if you have an issue you contact the moderators in a reasonable fashion, not continuing to clamor for attention, posting thread after thread after thread about how you see something as an injustice that needs to be fixed.

It's nice to see that you've finally acknowledged that such things don't have any effect except in the rarest of cases, however, these kinds of "we out" posts are just a giant fuck you to stir up drama as you leave. Disengage graciously, or quietly, or both, otherwise it just comes across as an incessant whine about you finally throwing in the towel after feeling that your opinion isn't validated enough.

In the end, it's just a forum, not a job. Treat it with the irrelevancy that it deserves.
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Korsavius

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Re: Break a leg.
« Reply #9 on: 04 Dec 2015, 13:32 »

Was tempted to say something dramatic and cheesy like "Et tu, Brute?" but instead I shall leave you with this...

Farewell but shine on you fabulously magnificent, rust-and-uzi wielding bastard.
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Lyn Farel

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Re: Break a leg.
« Reply #10 on: 04 Dec 2015, 13:44 »

I've moderated a few turbonerds in my time, FHC being what it is and legitimately the most frustrating thing for me was posters trying to tell me how to interpret and apply the rules of the forum. At the end of the day, if you have an issue you contact the moderators in a reasonable fashion, not continuing to clamor for attention, posting thread after thread after thread about how you see something as an injustice that needs to be fixed.

It's nice to see that you've finally acknowledged that such things don't have any effect except in the rarest of cases, however, these kinds of "we out" posts are just a giant fuck you to stir up drama as you leave. Disengage graciously, or quietly, or both, otherwise it just comes across as an incessant whine about you finally throwing in the towel after feeling that your opinion isn't validated enough.

In the end, it's just a forum, not a job. Treat it with the irrelevancy that it deserves.

What makes you think there has never been private talk with the mods?

One of them was full of direct insults and ad-hominems, and the other one, probably productive on the long run, but eventually didn't bare fruit and reinforced my opinion over what should be a clear cut case of things that should not even be subject to debate in the first place.

But what do we get instead? Disingenuous excuses like "we are not paid for that". That's right. Can I also go insult strangers I don't like in the street and tell them "well, i'm not paid to be polite and respectful"? I can perfectly get that someone can slip at times, I do it like anyone else and hate myself for it. That put aside, when it starts being a recurring pattern though...

So, nobody has even tried to argue against the fact that such behavior would get instant moderation for anyone else. Still waiting for a valid reason.

You speak like having been moderator somehow grants you a certain superiority of argument or position. You are not the only one with that kind of experience.

And i'm not even bringing up the issue that made Mizhara write this, which means shutting down entire threads that you don't like.
« Last Edit: 04 Dec 2015, 14:58 by Lyn Farel »
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Havohej

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Re: Break a leg.
« Reply #11 on: 04 Dec 2015, 17:20 »

Quote
I would like to direct your attention to the following:

Q: Isn't all this subjective?
A: Yes. The Mods do their best to be fair, but inevitably, this is a subjective standard. Another thing for you to Deal With.

As a user of Backstage, you were not promised 100% flawless, unerring, fairness and objectivity.  You were promised that we would do our best to maintain an atmosphere where any EVE RPer, regardless of faction or clique, could come and expect to be able to have a civil discussion about EVE RP.

That's what we've been doing and will continue to do, as volunteers on this forum.
The above is a quote of something I told someone else.

Lyn, you - more than anyone else I've encountered here - have a propensity for completely missing or just outright ignoring a point, picking a bit here or a piece there and using them, quite out of context, to support some other point that you're trying to argue.

The thing that you have to understand is that your opinion is not the prevalent opinion of the Mod Team and may not even be the prevalent opinion of the entire forum userbase.  It is your opinion.  Posting it again and again every time you don't get your way in an effort to stir up drama, particularly when targeting a particular team member, does not make your opinion any more or less valid than the first time you posted it.  I dare say that the effort to stir up drama actually weakens it.  If you're familiar with the idea of logical fallacies, and you're smart so I expect you're quite familiar, you know that it doesn't matter how many people you say have PMed you or convo'd you about how they agree with you (Appeal to Popularity) - that's entirely irrelevant to any point you're trying to make (which, obviously, has to be able to stand on its own merit).

We have heard you.  Several times.  We have discussed your points, some of us with you as well as with each other.  And yet, here we are.  Evidently, in the fullness of time it has come about that we have chosen not to agree with and/or act on your opinion.

Another thing for you to Deal With.

The fact of the matter is, and I'll reiterate despite the inherent futility, the fact of the matter is that if someone is making personal attacks at a Moderator and that Mod says something "indelicate" (to use Silver's word) to the person in the course of moderating the post/thread, then we're not going to lose any sleep over it and we're not going to support a call for action against that Moderator (the we're here is referring to myself and Silver - it still only takes one Moderator to decide to moderate a post, even if that post is made by another Team Member).  Any opinions to the contrary are duly noted.

It would be different if someone on the Mod Team was simply shitposting for its own sake and just generally being a bad forum user.  That hasn't been the case in any of these little drama events, that I've seen.

It would be different if a Mod were abusing the Moderation Tools in order to pursue some personal grudge or vendetta.  From what I've been told, this happened once and it was quickly stopped.  This has not been happening, and having recently added two new Moderators to the Team, we will be watching closely to ensure it does not begin to happen again.

Lastly, it would be different if a particular Mod ALWAYS posted indelicately when moderating posts/threads, with no mitigating circumstances whatsoever.  That is also a thing that has not been happening.

I can recall two different threads regarding Backstage, its intent and its current status.  In both of these threads, the topic of the Rules and FAQ and how the Mod Team applies them came up.  In both of these threads, the final consensus seemed to be that the Forum in general is healthy, the Community as a whole (such as it is) is about what it should be expected to be given the state of Eve, and there is nothing to see here.

We are not going to up and change everything to suit one person who consistently complains about the same thing.  We aren't going to up and change everything to suit two people.  We aren't going to up and change everything to suit a vocal minority.  If we up and change everything, it will be because we have seen a negative element grow out of control and recognize that a change needs to be made in order for Backstage to remain a place where any EVE RPer, regardless of faction or clique, can come and expect to be able to have a civil discussion about EVE RP.

That's the idea behind Backstage.  It's the only one I care about.

If the state of affairs here at Backstage is so unacceptable to you, then as I have pointed out to others, you do have alternatives.  If you would like more information about these alternatives, you can ask me about them via PM.  Apparently, offering these alternatives unsolicited is frowned upon in some circles.  I assure you, they're both quite innocuous.
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Lyn Farel

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Re: Break a leg.
« Reply #12 on: 05 Dec 2015, 04:18 »

On the quote, I think there is a misunderstanding here. I have never been complaining about the human, flawed side of any moderation. I have been a big supporter of the rules and mod team before it all started to spiral into that particular drama. I have seen cases where things could have been handled better, sure, but that's to be expected. Overall, the job was great, and I see that most people seem to agree with that, myself included. I just don't think that basic polite posting, double standards, and now systematic censorship is part of the idea here... In real life, that's a given. Why not here, where polite posting is the defining trait of that forum? Again, I would direct you to Scagga's post on the matter, if you are more inclined to believe someone that actually said words in the smoke filled room, since that day I only watched it unfold...

If I am ignoring any point, then pray tell me which one! You constantly tell me that you all disagree with me, and yet do not give me a single solid argument against what I have been saying, using instead disingenuous fallacies like "we are not paid for this" (yeah well, i'm not paid to be polite as well too, i'm not paid to put myself at the same standards than anyone else here, especially since i'm not a mod), or ad-hominem like I have a particular vendetta against one of the mods (which doesn't make my point less true). Again, please tell me.

Another thing, you are losing the big picture of sight and focusing on the last issue with PV that prompted that up again. I could care less what happens to PV, and if that was the lone issue, I would attribute it as you say, as the human side of the moderation. The problem however, is that not only you all outdid yourselves this time, but it has become rather endemic. The problem again, is that you will try to find any excuse "not to lose any sleep over" anything, every time. It's not about one tree here, but about the forest. It's about what probably pulled out many, many players already, and I see the same issue on slack #roleplay, albeit not only caused by moderators but some people in general. I miss Ghost Hunter and the others, we never had any issues with them.

As for your alternatives, I don't think you need to veil it behind vagueness or PMs to carry your point. It's not the first time i'm invited to leave. It only reinforces my willingness not to because it would serve your charade.

Quote
It would be different if someone on the Mod Team was simply shitposting for its own sake and just generally being a bad forum user.  That hasn't been the case in any of these little drama events, that I've seen.

I beg to differ.

Quote
Lastly, it would be different if a particular Mod ALWAYS posted indelicately when moderating posts/threads, with no mitigating circumstances whatsoever.  That is also a thing that has not been happening.

Half of the times, it has. Don't ever make me dig up all those threads again. I don't have the time for that, and I'm not in the habit of bookmarking everyone of them...

Quote
We are not going to up and change everything to suit one person who consistently complains about the same thing.  We aren't going to up and change everything to suit two people.  We aren't going to up and change everything to suit a vocal minority.  If we up and change everything, it will be because we have seen a negative element grow out of control and recognize that a change needs to be made in order for Backstage to remain a place where any EVE RPer, regardless of faction or clique, can come and expect to be able to have a civil discussion about EVE RP.

1) It's not a vocal minority, it's a silent big chunk of players.
2) Yes, the mod is a clique clinging to the little power they have left, but that I can understand will be subject to bias on both sides and disagreement so I'll not force the point, just so you know, i'm far from being the only one to think so.
3) Maybe it would be the time to notice that negative element. That's what I have been trying to tell you for all those years, but you remain blind, and I will prove it to you right now.


Incoming wall of text with as little redacted as possible, please note that some are very old and will maybe not tackle the direct problem per se, but refer to a more general, tied issue nonetheless:

Administrator Comment Snipped out due to violation of rule 7 - Silver

Past that point, I think most of them have left or are not lurking anymore. So maybe i'm beating a dead horse since the damage is already done.

Oh, of course, feel free to disagree with them all, it's your right. I am not taking everything at face value, but some make good points, and they still constitute opinions like any other. They are the silent part, and certainly not a vocal minority, to the contrary.
« Last Edit: 09 Dec 2015, 00:04 by Silver Night »
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Sofia Roseburn

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Re: Break a leg.
« Reply #13 on: 05 Dec 2015, 06:02 »

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Utari Onzo

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Re: Break a leg.
« Reply #14 on: 05 Dec 2015, 06:54 »

Regardless of how individuals feel about other posters, if they have a point let them make it. Feel free to counter, but let's no descend into name calling. Keep on topic, namely the discussion about moderation on this board, and not the validity of other poster's content/post counts unless it's related to the subject.
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"Face the enemy as a solid wall
For faith is your armor
And through it, the enemy will find no breach
Wrap your arms around the enemy
For faith is your fire
And with it, burn away his evil"


PTB is recruiting
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