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[Skyweir Kinnison]

As conceived, Skyweir has a fairly abrasive view of the current Tribal Republic (some of which is explained in my other post on the Mannar émigrés. As he has started his political career, he has recognised the need to be better informed as not only does much of his constituency comprise Minmatar immigrants (who themselves colour some of his views, as expatriates often do) but also - if he might at some point aspire to the Senate - he needs a more cosmopolitan and inclusive perspective. He was also brought up short by those better informed than he in the IGS recently, and undertook to educate himself.

To that end, I wonder if anyone would be willing to engage in a discussion on the modern Republic - her institutions, economy and living conditions? In the framework of a low-level political fact-finding mission, where Skyweir and several other deputies of the Elose Assembly were visiting some regions of the Republic to better understand its people and future. The context is not only Skyweir's development, but the relationship between the Federation and the Republic, specifically the nature of aid and treaty expectations.

There's os very little in the PF (at least that I can find) that describes the current Tribal Republic and what must be its successes and failures. Everything seems stuck at the transition between Midular and the Sanmatar - and having read the contributions of the influential and passionate Matari players here, it seems that there would be fertile ground for doing more world-building than CCP seem to wish to do.

If no-one's interested, I understand and will do the research and development from what i can find. But it would be cool to have experienced Matari players guide me and ensure i didn't make stupid mistakes. 

[Mizhara]

Nothing but slums and violence and technology is entirely based on whacking sticks with sticks and seeing what sticks together. Well, according to... well, anyone I've ever roleplayed with on the subject, inside and outside the faction. For some reason people tend to go bloody medieval in their portrayal of Matari society, both in respects to living situations and cultural and societal norms.

"Tribal" apparently translates to loincloths and dancing around fires while chanting gibberish.

I'm certainly interested in talking about the subject, preferably in a forum environment like this as it'll likely require some long-form responses and clarifications. It'd probably be quite a bit easier if we narrowed down to far more specific topics though, as "The Tribal Republic" and "institutions, economy and living conditions" span some fairly gargantuan fields, and would vary quite a bit from location to location and social status, etc etc. Remember, just here on Earth it's kind of hard to sum up any single nation in that regard without having huge variety within it, and we're talking a humongous interstellar entity here.

[Louella Dougans]

The core worlds of the Republic, outside of Matar itself, have a lot of infrastructure, equal to almost any developed world in all of New Eden. On these worlds, cities may not be as stylised as Gallente, as ornate as Amarr, or as efficient as Caldari cities, but they are functional and liveable in for any citizen of New Eden.

Matar itself, has some social problems, being the centre of relocation efforts. Any refugees, escaped slaves, returning descendants of Minmatar living elsewhere, all of them tend to arrive on Matar first, and not all of them can then afford to go elsewhere. Large areas of Matar have significant historical or cultural importance, and development is restricted. There are also some groups who insist on a lower-technological lifestyle, as a form of semi-historical re-enactment of their ancestors lives, prior to the Day of Darkness, though the historical accuracy of some of their chosen lifestyles is questionable. This all causes friction with other agencies, and the task of removing illegal migrant camps is a constant endeavour.
The large transient population is a bureaucratic nightmare, and the authorities have their hands full trying to find work, housing, food, and other services for the population.

[Utari Onzo]

Sounds like a developing nation like India. Lots of ability/infrastructure and investment in the "rich" areas, with areas of serious poverty outside of those bubbles. Would this be at least a half way comparison?

[Louella Dougans]

I don't know. Maybe. Or maybe comparisons to housing schemes in some of the large UK cities may be useful in envisioning things.

[Lyn Farel]

I am not sure. The Republic has always truck me as probably the most social of all, despite what the Federation seems to think of itself. May not present the wondrous Alpha cities of the Federation, but I am pretty sure that's probably the land where people care the most about each other. Probably the faction where social inequalities are the lowest.

Of course, i'm doing a small leap of faith here. Speculative.

[Mizhara]

I doubt there's a lack of social inequalities, but the separating lines would probably go along clan lines rather than other social structures. Inherently about family structures and responsibilities, you'd probably also see less of the insane disparity you see in the western "I am the 1%, I am the 99%" kind of thing as the big shots of the Tribes would likely view their clans 'lessers' as more of a responsibility than your average wealthy CEO/politician/whatever. Wealth, power and clout would likely be understood to be borne from the clan's support and repaid in kind.

Of course, some clans would be far more prosperous and powerful than others, and working to ensure that it stays that way so there'd be plenty of social inequality, but on different scales than in your average western society. The ones coming off worse than most would be the black sheep of a clan, the clanless, and immigrants that for some reason can't find a way into a clan. There'd be much less of a social security net, as they'd be more clan/tribe specific than generalized across the Republic and even if banding together (or forced together, like many immigrants tend to be by necessity) doesn't really help all that much when there's not much to go around to begin with.

I suspect the massive weaponized "charity" of dumping a gargantuan fuckton of slaves on the Republic has forced some reform in that regard, though. Being rather understanding of social responsibility due to the family structures of clans and tribes, there's bound to have been pushes towards more generalized social uplifting programs and welfare to try and solve this problem but it's quite likely that it has been slow going due to both a general unwillingness to adapt away from culturally traditional (and thus very highly valued) ways and the generally lower initial assets to begin with.

Now, do remember that there's likely to be humongous differences between different regions of the Republic both in terms of culture, traditions and assets without even taking the differences between tribes into account, so it's very likely you'd see huge differences in how much these things are weighed up against each other in different places. Some places would lower their own living standards significantly in order to raise the lowest living standards equally significantly, because it's simply who and how they are while others would culturally consider it flat out morally and ethically wrong to turn so much attention and assets towards the most unfortunate while there's a war to be fought and their own family and kin to help.

The differences in how these things would be handled and how their society looks as a result would differ between different regions on the very same planets, not to mention in different systems or constellations.

Funnily enough, it's actually easier to make faction wide generalizations on the Gallente's "culturally diverse" nation than it is on the somewhat more rigid culture of the Tribes or even State.

[Pieter Tuulinen]

The majority of the cities in the Pator system are probably brand spanking new as they would have had to have been rebuilt almost entirely from scratch after the rebellion and reverse-diaspora after the end of the slave period of Matari history. See German cities, for examples.

I agree with Miz that poverty is probably best measured between clans rather than individuals, in traditional Matari society at least. I also think the nature of Matari poverty needs to be examined as it may manifest differently than we think, based on Western expectations.

I imagine poverty in Matari terms to be a dearth of real natural resources like wood, stone, fur and metal. I would think that the acme of wealth on Matari is either imported high-tech or else traditional hand-crafted items, clothes, houses and furniture. I would think that poverty in Matari terms probably looks like poorly cared for and mass-produced items of cheap design and materials like bio-plastics, space-mined ores and similar. I would think that these items would represent the baseline subsistence level of Matari society as produced in clan-owned factories and doled out through clan-managed distribution centers.

Meanwhile, wealthy clans would be those who have sufficient resources that they have been able to rebuild traditional herds, agriculturally rich croplands, planet-based ore mines (possibly manned by Federation drone miners, even) stands of natural trees and so forth.

[Mizhara]

Very good points that I haven't considered much. I'd have to think a bit more on the nature of poverty in the Republic/Tribes to really make any contribution there, but the way you put it makes sense on first glance.

[Elmund Egivand]

I like to advise looking at how the modern Mongols live to understand a bit about the anachronism you might find in a Minmatar-settled world.

In modern Mongolia, you have these nomadic families that lived the same way their ancestors did, going from one grazing pasture to another to feed their herds. The difference is that instead of horses, they use motorcycles and sometimes even aircraft for scouting work. And their mobile settlements have heating and satellite coverage.

Then you have the Mongols who do not live the nomadic lifestyle migrating to the cities to settle permanently, opening shops and such, but they still help their still nomadic families out with information and trade.

Might want to use that example and apply that with the various tribes and their own unique way of life in the Minmatar Republic. For example, Sebiestor clans who still live in the cold frozen mountains and tundras hunting food with slugthrowers, roaming around on motorised vehicles, fishing on trawlers and growing crops in carefully regulated greenhouses, and Vherokhior clans that still travel and settle around major trade routes on motorised vehicles and has escorts in essentially APCs and gunships and such.

Also want to note that Minmatar cities are probably going to have a very barebones look. Remember that when the Republic was conceived, there was a need to develop rapidly to catch up with all those centuries the Minmatar spent in slavery, so expect to find alot of prefabs, oil-rig-like structures and the like, especially so outside the core worlds. Probably expect the same thing in culturally significant settlements, except you got all these modern structures erected around the more elaborate and ornate ancient structures and such. In the core worlds, such buildings are probably reinforced, made prettier, renovated, upgraded, but expect to still see signs of their prefab, very barebones roots in the structure frame and such.

[Calliste Dauvienne]

I would have to say that in considering the Republic it is probably best to try and separate the roleplayers from the actual lore on the Minmatar and Republic.

This is for the simple reason that there isn't a changing attitude in Minmatar RP, there is only a singular attitude. It is an attitude based on the propaganda of persecution and victimhood, and what only changes is who is currently in vogue to blame as an oppressor:

It's either the Amarr Empire because of slavery and religion
It's either the Gallente Federation because they're destroying the culture
It's either the Caldari State because they're fascist capitalists exploiters
It's either the Minmatar Republic itself because of democracy, Midular is an appeaser, and no one cares about refugees

So that's the thing, when the players of Minmatar seem to love nothing more than to be the never ending victims of persecution, discrimination, and oppression in order usually to win propaganda points no one is even counting through anecdotal evidence then yes, it will always create a strong misimpression of weakness. Because logically, to be the victim of anything you cannot be in a position of strength.

When Minmatar roleplayers themselves seem to think the only thing Minmatar can accomplish is to sell fish and clean toilets in the Federation, then it will always be difficult to see the Republic as reflected in the lore. A culture and society than managed to resist over a millenium of slavery and subjugation to maintain their identity; are growing a strong domestic economy by leveraging their advantage in population base to develop infrastructure and create a high-tech industrial and manufacturing base with high degrees of innovation that is fostering foreign investment; and who are returning to a unified tribal polity that existed prior to the Amarrian invasions.

It becomes difficult to engage with that Republic and those Minmatar when you feel you have to wade through a quagmire of personal persecution stories filled with discrimination, ghettoes, and Amarrian masters who seemed to have nothing better to do than whip them non-stop.

[Elmund Egivand]

Didn't help at all that EVE Source focuses so much on the slavery facet too.

At least the latter chronicles for Minmatar deals with politics and science and technology on the Minmatar side instead of all the darn slaves bugbear.

[Calliste Dauvienne]

Yeah, pretty much.

You don't become a major interstellar power because you're some kind of failed state living on IMF handouts, but that portrayal seems to come from players and less so the actual lore.

Playing to being the underdog is cool and all, but I do think it can be a bit like shooting yourself in the foot when it gets overplayed.

Because when that becomes a prevalent narrative I feel it really takes the focus away from what the Minmatar and Republic have actually managed to accomplish.

[Mizhara]

I do want to point out that the players coming down on factions is a thing that happens to all four. Eve is a very confrontational and conflict based game in that regard, and often pretty much any interaction in public will almost immediately become "OH YEAH?! WELL EXILES AND SLUMS SO THERE!".

Most Matari RPers... well, once upon a ye olde time at any rate. The current crop I can't speak for... was actually quite focused on the rebuilding and extolling the virtues of the society. It is entirely possible to do that while still being heavily anti-slavery and I think I proved that with the Neutral Grounds. Of course, having less time in Eve apparently made that die off.

[Calliste Dauvienne]

I think for me it sometimes feels like the themes of colonialism and imperialism underlying the Minmatar lead many to frame it in the image of some kind of barely developed thirld world failed state instead of say, China, which historically was just as much a target of colonialism and imperialism but which is now becoming a strong economic and military power.

On that point you even have things like the Minmatar traditionally being the source of trade unionism and socialist politics in the Federation to have a discussion on topics such as socialist ideology and Minmatar Tribes/clans potentially having parallels since both focus on communal values and collective effort.

Which might lead to discussion of Minmatar clan style kibbutz or potentially how the Minmatar have adopted a Tribal-Socialist kind of corporatism/State capitalist/Ordoliberal style of economics where Tribes and clans are the major stakeholders in corporations and that has been a source of growth and expansion in the Republic economy?

What if the sources of tension with the Federation isn't because Minmatar are all living in slums and being discriminated against while being victims of, "Cultural imperialism". Maybe it's because the Minmatar are becoming successful while not actually adopting Gallente style liberal market economics that is fuelling undercurrents of resentment. That Minmatar in the Federation are beginning to spread their cultural values and political/economic ideologies into the Federation and changing it from within -- not the other way around.

And frankly I think the Minmatar suffer from an issue similar to the Caldari in how roleplayers externalize the Empire and the Federation as their, "Great Enemy". It's essentially handing over the initiative to those same enemies, because they will never be destroyed - ever - mechanics wise. It's like trolling yourself in a sense, because you can expend as much effort as you want calling them evil oppressors but they can just do the equivalent of, "Why so mad?" And carry on, while you've essentially acknowledged them as a stronger oppressor and yourself as the weaker victim in framing the power dynamics.