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Author Topic: Strength of EvE Weaponry.  (Read 6563 times)

Vikarion

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Re: Strength of EvE Weaponry.
« Reply #45 on: 08 May 2015, 20:48 »

Correction: The article does not state that the polar ice caps were immediately melted, but rather that they will nearly melt eventually. This is significantly different.

Actually, the article states that "We are facing almost full polar cap meltdown" which does not indicate time either way - however, later in the article you read "we expect sea level to have risen, covering at least two thirds of the existing landmass, the remaining surface being largely scorched", which is past tense, indicating that this has already occurred.

Strictly speaking, a crater should still be created through immediate heating of the ground directly beneath the explosion. It may not be as large as you would expect from a direct kinetic impact, but it would still be there.

I think that that would reasonably fall under "scorched". In any case, this is an argument from absence of perfect evidence, which is invalid. Especially when the articles explicitly state that it was an Avatar's doomsday weapon.

They are non-canon to Disney's continuity; they are still canon to the EU/Legends continuity.

To me, it makes sense to use a source which is acknowledged as canon on all levels, rather than pick a source from one line of canon. Star Trek also has a non-canonical/semi-canonical line of books that portray those ships as being much more powerful, but I reject that, too.

Check your math: 200x1012 tons is 200 teratons, not 200,000. The Venator's main battery is outputting more firepower than a doomsday every second.

Sorry about that math failure. Show's why I shouldn't calculate while groggy. Again, however, I still have to reject that figure from the EU. Not just because the EU is non-canon, but also because there are wildly varying depictions of firepower in the EU, and a figure that high completely disagrees with depictions seen in the movies. For example, in the battle over Coruscant, you see un-shielded ships taking turbolaser fire and not disintegrating into chunks.

Also, there is the slightly eye-rolling nature of building a Death Star if an outdated 20-year-old starship can accomplish the same thing.

Even by reducing these values by a commensurate amount to correct for the earlier math failure - to 0.88 teratons/sec and 4.4 teratons/sec respectively - we run into another problem: There is no evidence of damage output this high - or that our craft are capable of supporting weapons output in this range. If this were accurate, our orbital bombardments should be catastrophic, battle-ending affairs which would incinerate battlefields.

Actually, if you read some of the lore, you find lots of evidence for it. Planetary bombardment for DUST actually does require special rounds - probably powered down rounds for precision strikes. And they're using small ammo, for frigates. When the Amarr decided to destroy the Starkmanir, they simply hit the planet with tachyon lasers, which essentially glassed the surface. According to EvElopedia, the planet's crust was rendered, the tectonic plates shattered, and the planet flows with rivers of magma.

Similarly, unless a titan's superweapon would destroy a planet, there was no reason for Heth to park a ship like the Leviathan in orbit. Go through the lore, and you can find quite a few depictions of massive damage being done. It's also the only reason I can think of for Caldari dreadnoughts in TEA to use plasma beams to bombard Gallente forces - citadel missiles would have destroyed everything around. As it is, Caldari dreadnoughts are perfectly capable of destroying entire populations if they want, as Tibus Heth uses that threat against Fouritain.
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Vikarion

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Re: Strength of EvE Weaponry.
« Reply #46 on: 08 May 2015, 20:59 »

Do we have any other sources for calculating EVE damage? Perhaps by taking a known laser method and measuring how much wattage it uses, or projectile ammunition ballistics based on their size? How much power could a 125mm Carbonized Lead shell conceivably do? How much damage could a small beam laser do operating in the visible light spectrum? Translate those to damage points. What about measuring armor plating? How much energy would it take to penetrate a 1.6m steel plate? Now translate that to hitpoints.

Most importantly, before we draw our conclusions, do all these conversion rates match each other? Do they still make sense? Can we still use DPS as an even remotely accurate measurement?

I'm skeptical about EvE lasers. I'm of the opinion that they can't possibly be lasers as we know of them - they don't act like it, they don't look like them, and the whole idea of needing to "cycle" beam lasers is kinda funny too.

I have two theories for what they might be.

First, it could be a laser, but a laser in which, thanks to tesseract technology, a portion of "frozen" space time has been fired into for an much longer period of time. When the laser "fires", it releases all of that energy at once.

Second, the "laser" part of the weapon only functions as, essentially, part of the process. When the "laser" fires, it paints a track in space, then directs an extremely dense, concentrated beam of particles (x-ray, gamma, whatever), along the path, along with a massive amount of ions, which give the weapon such great shield-disrupting qualities. This combination dense-laser/particle beam would explain why you can see the laser fire.

EvE armor is obviously not like RL armor, also. So I don't know how to quantify it.

I have trouble with EvE projectile ammunition. We know it can be rocket-assisted, and we know some variants are very powerful nukes, but other information is limited. What is "phased plasma"? One of the rounds will penetrate a ship and then release sub-munitions. Of what? Antimatter?

Another problem is that the physics in EvE are somewhat different (although apparently not too much) from our world.
« Last Edit: 08 May 2015, 22:40 by Vikarion »
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Elmund Egivand

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Re: Strength of EvE Weaponry.
« Reply #47 on: 09 May 2015, 00:44 »

What is a phased plasma round?

It's plasma contained within a shell which can generate its own magnetic field, lobbed at the other ship you don't like. The shell penetrates before detonating a split second later, releasing the plasma to melt the matter around it.

Plasma is plasma. It's not anti-matter.

For all I know, Eve Online projectile weapons might actually be upsized bolt-guns firing exotic ammunition. Also, don't overthink the Matari tech. Matari technology should be at once very familiar to us since they are using technologies very similar to what we are using now, except with more refined application and very heavy use of miniaturisation and advance materials like nanofibers, ceramic-based plating (that's what Fernite Carbide is, highly advanced ceramic plating). Seriously, the Minmatar are still using electrolytic capacitors (should be very familiar) and nuclear reactors (just like what we did with modern naval warships).
« Last Edit: 09 May 2015, 00:57 by Elmund Egivand »
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Vikarion

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Re: Strength of EvE Weaponry.
« Reply #48 on: 09 May 2015, 01:04 »

What is a phased plasma round?

It's plasma contained within a shell which can generate its own magnetic field, lobbed at the other ship you don't like. The shell penetrates before detonating a split second later, releasing the plasma to melt the matter around it.

Plasma is plasma. It's not anti-matter.

That's just regular plasma. I want to know what the "phased" part is.  :P

My pet theory is that "phased plasma" is plasma somewhat out of phase with our own universe, like a warping EvE ship, which allows it to partially pass through matter/shields, before phasing back, making it exponentially more destructive.

It is somewhat interesting, though, to note that with the Caldari and Gallente, you have weapons that are obviously truly nasty, like missiles (citadel torps, for example) that work by actually shearing space-time apart. Or blasters accelerating matter to something like 99% of the speed of light and throwing it at an enemy. And then you have Minmatar using depleted uranium rounds. That's sort of a "huh"?

Yes, Minmatar use "fission" reactors. That's not necessarily the same thing as a modern nuclear reactor. For all we know, Minmatar ships are operating off of a sustained nuclear explosion. Which would be awesome.

Anyway, nuclear reactors are great, but the Amarr use antimatter reactors, and their power generation isn't all that different in scale from Minnie ships. The Caldari use gravitic reactors, which probably involves black-hole-like entities, and the situation is the same. So either the Minmatar have much better methods for generating power with fission than we do (and they are said to be brilliant mechanical engineers), or the other two races are incredibly incompetent at power generation using far more powerful technologies.
« Last Edit: 09 May 2015, 01:08 by Vikarion »
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Elmund Egivand

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Re: Strength of EvE Weaponry.
« Reply #49 on: 09 May 2015, 01:43 »

What is a phased plasma round?

It's plasma contained within a shell which can generate its own magnetic field, lobbed at the other ship you don't like. The shell penetrates before detonating a split second later, releasing the plasma to melt the matter around it.

Plasma is plasma. It's not anti-matter.

That's just regular plasma. I want to know what the "phased" part is.  :P

My pet theory is that "phased plasma" is plasma somewhat out of phase with our own universe, like a warping EvE ship, which allows it to partially pass through matter/shields, before phasing back, making it exponentially more destructive.

It is somewhat interesting, though, to note that with the Caldari and Gallente, you have weapons that are obviously truly nasty, like missiles (citadel torps, for example) that work by actually shearing space-time apart. Or blasters accelerating matter to something like 99% of the speed of light and throwing it at an enemy. And then you have Minmatar using depleted uranium rounds. That's sort of a "huh"?

Yes, Minmatar use "fission" reactors. That's not necessarily the same thing as a modern nuclear reactor. For all we know, Minmatar ships are operating off of a sustained nuclear explosion. Which would be awesome.

Anyway, nuclear reactors are great, but the Amarr use antimatter reactors, and their power generation isn't all that different in scale from Minnie ships. The Caldari use gravitic reactors, which probably involves black-hole-like entities, and the situation is the same. So either the Minmatar have much better methods for generating power with fission than we do (and they are said to be brilliant mechanical engineers), or the other two races are incredibly incompetent at power generation using far more powerful technologies.

My idea of a 'phased' plasma is just plasma that's contained, to keep it from reacting with the shell itself (or anything really, until the shell detonates). That's the difference between the Gallente plasma ammunition and the Matari plasma ammunition. Blaster weapons have to draw energy from the capacitor to convert the matter within the rounds into plasma before discharging. Projectile weapons do not do that, the munition charges are already in plasma form, contained inside the shell by means of magnetic fields and whatever tech wizardry the Matari engineers came up with.

Also, remember that the Minmatar's claim to fame is in mechanical engineering, materials research and nanotechnology. The latter two will explain the efficiency of their nuclear reactors. Improved techniques in refining nuclear fuel, miniaturised machinery, advanced energy capture and heat dissipation techniques, etc.

Also, I doubt the Caldari missiles shear space time at all. Nova utilises explosive shockwaves to do damage (no idea how they manage that since shockwaves can't really be transmitted in the vacuum medium. Then again, how does falloff work in a vacuum, zero gravity environment anyway? It's not like the shells deaccelerate or fall towards a surface or anything. If anything they should keep travelling until they eventually hit something at some time), Scourge ejects shrapnel to pierce through the target's armour and hull, Mjolnir releases electromagnetic pulses, Inferno releases contained plasma or some kind of future napalm. On the matter of Citadel Torpedoes, that just how the Caldari classify something a capital-ship sized Torpedo. I imagine that the Caldari specifically designate those huge Torpedoes as 'Citadel' Torpedo because the Torpedoes actually look like this:

https://youtu.be/NNc242mbiUs?t=58s

Also, blasters do not accelerate matter to 99% speed of light. That's railguns. Also, railguns do not convert matter to plasma, they just straight up fire the shell at the target. The capacitor's energy is drawn to activate the rails for this acceleration.
« Last Edit: 09 May 2015, 02:00 by Elmund Egivand »
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Lyn Farel

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Re: Strength of EvE Weaponry.
« Reply #50 on: 09 May 2015, 02:18 »

Well if we have to go down that road, explosive damage does not make any sense in space afaik. A shell exploding in space will only result in thermal and kinetic damage (energy heat + frag).
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Vikarion

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Re: Strength of EvE Weaponry.
« Reply #51 on: 09 May 2015, 02:22 »

Edmund,

First, Caldari  (Scourge) missiles do play havoc with space-time. That's what increasing or decreasing gravity is. From the Citadel Torpedo description:
Quote
Citadel Torpedoes are behemoths designed for maximum firepower against capital ships and installations. They are usable only by capital ships and starbase defense batteries.

Fitted with a graviton pulse generator, this weapon causes massive damage as it overwhelms ships' internal structures, tearing bulkheads and armor plating apart with frightening ease.

Second, blasters do convert the hybrid ammunition to plasma, yes, but they then use a cyclotron to accelerate the charge. From the description for a large blaster:
Quote
Particle blasters operate on a similar principle as the railgun except they fire a magnetically contained ball of subatomic particles. No other turret class can match the sheer destructive power of particle blasters, but due to the rapid dispersion of the containment field, it also has the worst range of all turrets.

And from the text describing the antimatter charge:
Quote
Consists of two components: a shell of titanium and a core of antimatter atoms suspended in plasma state. Railguns launch the shell directly, while particle blasters pump the plasma into a cyclotron and process the plasma into a bolt that is then fired.

By the way, it's darkly hilarious that in EvE, it's not enough to just fire antimatter at the enemy. Nope. You have to get it up to around the speed of light, first. Otherwise, it's apparently just not awesome enough.  :P
« Last Edit: 09 May 2015, 02:24 by Vikarion »
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Elmund Egivand

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Re: Strength of EvE Weaponry.
« Reply #52 on: 09 May 2015, 02:25 »

Well if we have to go down that road, explosive damage does not make any sense in space afaik. A shell exploding in space will only result in thermal and kinetic damage (energy heat + frag).

There really are quite a number of things in Eve Online that really shouldn't work the way they did. For example, every projectile that's fired should keep travelling if they miss because Newtonian Physics. The ships shouldn't be stopping when the engines are turned off (though that's explained away as being a warp core quirk), and etc.

However, all of that had to be ignored for the sake of gameplay balance.
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Elmund Egivand

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Re: Strength of EvE Weaponry.
« Reply #53 on: 09 May 2015, 02:31 »

Edmund,

First, Caldari  (Scourge) missiles do play havoc with space-time. That's what increasing or decreasing gravity is. From the Citadel Torpedo description:
Quote
Citadel Torpedoes are behemoths designed for maximum firepower against capital ships and installations. They are usable only by capital ships and starbase defense batteries.

Fitted with a graviton pulse generator, this weapon causes massive damage as it overwhelms ships' internal structures, tearing bulkheads and armor plating apart with frightening ease.

Second, blasters do convert the hybrid ammunition to plasma, yes, but they then use a cyclotron to accelerate the charge. From the description for a large blaster:
Quote
Particle blasters operate on a similar principle as the railgun except they fire a magnetically contained ball of subatomic particles. No other turret class can match the sheer destructive power of particle blasters, but due to the rapid dispersion of the containment field, it also has the worst range of all turrets.

And from the text describing the antimatter charge:
Quote
Consists of two components: a shell of titanium and a core of antimatter atoms suspended in plasma state. Railguns launch the shell directly, while particle blasters pump the plasma into a cyclotron and process the plasma into a bolt that is then fired.

By the way, it's darkly hilarious that in EvE, it's not enough to just fire antimatter at the enemy. Nope. You have to get it up to around the speed of light, first. Otherwise, it's apparently just not awesome enough.  :P

Graviton pulse generator is for propelling the ship by use of gravitons. Standard rocket fuel won't work due to the sheer mass of the Citadel torps themselves (seriously, just look at the Citadel missiles fired in the Inferno trailer. Those are huge. That's why I draw comparison with 40k's Cyclonic warheads, which actually has a human to draw comparisons with). The actual damage is inflicted by the four flavours of warheads. The kind of damage described doesn't need to be inflicted by gravitons at all. Just look at the size of the Torpedo. Propellant of that mass flinging shrapnels of that mass? If that goes through the shield and the armour, it's going to really rip the decks apart! It would be just like some poor dude getting a grapeshot to the face!

Point taken on the blasters however. Then again, if they didn't accelerate it the plasma won't even travel 500m. Instead the Incursus that fired it will find its armour eaten by the cloud of plasma it just fired. Also, the anti-matter probably has to be contained in plasma state the same way the Matari contained their plasma munitions because otherwise, the anti-matter, which isn't suspended by a magnetic field and kept away from everything else, would instead just react with the shell and blow up the gunnery deck (and the rest of the ship along with it).
« Last Edit: 09 May 2015, 02:39 by Elmund Egivand »
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Lyn Farel

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Re: Strength of EvE Weaponry.
« Reply #54 on: 09 May 2015, 03:02 »

Well if we have to go down that road, explosive damage does not make any sense in space afaik. A shell exploding in space will only result in thermal and kinetic damage (energy heat + frag).

There really are quite a number of things in Eve Online that really shouldn't work the way they did. For example, every projectile that's fired should keep travelling if they miss because Newtonian Physics. The ships shouldn't be stopping when the engines are turned off (though that's explained away as being a warp core quirk), and etc.

However, all of that had to be ignored for the sake of gameplay balance.

Well that was what i'm getting at... Newtonian physics in eve is non existent.
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Elmund Egivand

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Re: Strength of EvE Weaponry.
« Reply #55 on: 09 May 2015, 03:04 »

Well if we have to go down that road, explosive damage does not make any sense in space afaik. A shell exploding in space will only result in thermal and kinetic damage (energy heat + frag).

There really are quite a number of things in Eve Online that really shouldn't work the way they did. For example, every projectile that's fired should keep travelling if they miss because Newtonian Physics. The ships shouldn't be stopping when the engines are turned off (though that's explained away as being a warp core quirk), and etc.

However, all of that had to be ignored for the sake of gameplay balance.

Well that was what i'm getting at... Newtonian physics in eve is non existent.

I wonder why there hasn't been anyone in Eve Online who publish a paper to prove the existence of Ether in Eve Online, and that we in space are surrounded by the damn thing instead of, you know, actual vacuum?

That would explain alot.
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Lyn Farel

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Re: Strength of EvE Weaponry.
« Reply #56 on: 09 May 2015, 03:44 »

I seem to remember some obscure old lore about warp cores that prevents that or something... Which was a bit silly.
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Elmund Egivand

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Re: Strength of EvE Weaponry.
« Reply #57 on: 09 May 2015, 06:05 »

I seem to remember some obscure old lore about warp cores that prevents that or something... Which was a bit silly.

Yeah, I hear of how warp cores are the reason behind all ships flying around like submarine, and how you can't just turn it off.

IC Elmund describes it as warp cores forming an anchor in space-time, so that when activated, it can then use this anchor to move space-time around the ship, thus achieving FTL. I figured that makes more sense than depleted vacuum. Seriously, what is depleted vacuum anyway? IRL I don't quite buy the explanation.
« Last Edit: 09 May 2015, 08:29 by Elmund Egivand »
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Mathra Hiede

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Re: Strength of EvE Weaponry.
« Reply #58 on: 04 Aug 2015, 23:25 »

>.>
<.<

Soooo. Just read through this interesting mass of fun.

I have a thought to add, just for the moment in regards to a possible correlation between falloff and that freaky deaky idea of projectiles flying forever.

For a railgun/munitions weapon I like the idea of an internal accelerometer and basic guidance system in the munition. I'm thinking quite literally a dumb system that tracks distance from origin.
Optimal range then becomes the range at which that the ammunition counts before the munition becomes unstable. Fall off is the extra distance the munition will travel before it self destructs.

Now you say. Why don't they just make this self destruct range something ludicrous and we have near infinite range?
Well if you're hurling missiles/ammunition at incredible speeds, they won't hold together forever, if you want those projectiles to deliberately explode and shred on impact you can't make the shells too strong (things like depleted uranium excluded) or they won't deploy properly.

Similar idea for lasers, which we seem to be agreeing are particle beams as opposed to pure light beams. At optimal the beam has maintained focus and still creates an appropriate focus point to do damage, fall off being the range when focus disperses and after that. It'll be bright but won't hurt a ship

Thoughts kiddies?



Also. Mmm hai? Been a while ;)
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Vikarion

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Re: Strength of EvE Weaponry.
« Reply #59 on: 06 Aug 2015, 18:54 »

>.>
<.<

Soooo. Just read through this interesting mass of fun.

I have a thought to add, just for the moment in regards to a possible correlation between falloff and that freaky deaky idea of projectiles flying forever.

For a railgun/munitions weapon I like the idea of an internal accelerometer and basic guidance system in the munition. I'm thinking quite literally a dumb system that tracks distance from origin.
Optimal range then becomes the range at which that the ammunition counts before the munition becomes unstable. Fall off is the extra distance the munition will travel before it self destructs.

Now you say. Why don't they just make this self destruct range something ludicrous and we have near infinite range?
Well if you're hurling missiles/ammunition at incredible speeds, they won't hold together forever, if you want those projectiles to deliberately explode and shred on impact you can't make the shells too strong (things like depleted uranium excluded) or they won't deploy properly.

Similar idea for lasers, which we seem to be agreeing are particle beams as opposed to pure light beams. At optimal the beam has maintained focus and still creates an appropriate focus point to do damage, fall off being the range when focus disperses and after that. It'll be bright but won't hurt a ship

Thoughts kiddies?



Also. Mmm hai? Been a while ;)

That's actually been some of my thinking on the subject. My other consideration is that EW is very powerful in EvE. Perhaps the problem is that ships cannot maintain a good resolution target lock past 250 km or so.

Also, more support for my position of EvE Weapons being higg-powered: Falcon stated (in the EvE fiction forum at the EvE forums) that an activation of the Oblivion superweapon would have erased all life on Caldari Prime.
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