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[Louella Dougans]

Eve source has some numbers.

Free population of Amarr = 21 Trillion

Enslaved Minmatar = 10 Trillion

Average no. slaves per household = 2.3


lets say the minmatar are 100% of the slave population (untrue), that means there'd be 10/2.3 ~4 Trillion households.

Household would be married couple + children, so maybe 4 people. Which would mean only 5 Trillion people in the Amarr Empire do not live in a slave-owning household.

other figures say there's 3.8 Tn Caldari and 1.5 Tn Gallente, and they aren't allowed to own slaves. And that adds up to more than 5 Tn, which would mean that the entire population of the Amarr Empire would have to be living in a slave-owning household.

Which is demonstratably untrue.

If Minmatar were only 50% of the total slave population, then again, with 2.3 slaves per household, then, you'd end up with 8Tn households, which doesn't add up with the total population of free Amarr.


So the numbers don't work.

[Iwan Terpalen]

[[Disregard, I am in fact suffering from a grand mal seizure]]

[Samira Kernher]

Falcon told me in a PM that slaves make up 49% of the population of the Amarr Empire.

Ergo, there are about 20-21 trillion slaves in the Empire, 10-11 trillion of of which are Minmatar.


The per house hold number is an average. Commoner families don't own slaves. Holder families do. 2.3 slaves per household does not actually mean that every household regardless of social class has at least two slaves.

[Louella Dougans]

The per house hold number is an average. Commoner families don't own slaves. Holder families do. 2.3 slaves per household does not actually mean that every household regardless of social class has at least two slaves.

21 trillion slaves then.

Average number of slaves per household is still 2.3

which means there are roughly 10 trillion households.

and with a commoner+holder population of 21 trillion. that means 2.1 people per household, no ?

[Morwen Lagann]

I'm not sure your internal math is including the vast array of zeroes implied by the fact that commoner households do not hold slaves.

[Louella Dougans]

commoners not holding slaves doesn't matter.

population of 10 slaves. Average number of slaves per household of 1.

0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,10 = 10 slaves in 10 households, average 1. Same as 1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1 Ten slaves, ten households.

Even if the Empress had all 21 Tn slaves, and no other household had any, for the average per household to be 2.3 then there'd be 11 Tn households more or less.

and with 11 Tn households, and 21 Tn people to fill those households, then that's a very low number of people per household. Too low.

too low by far.

[Pieter Tuulinen]

I think there are fewer households, if that matters. Amarr is largely agrarian and agrarian societies usually have far more children.

[Arkon Sarain]

I think there are fewer households, if that matters. Amarr is largely agrarian and agrarian societies usually have far more children.

Are they? I mean I know the Amarr have whole planets devoted just to food production (Joint Harvesting in-game corporate description), and their largest industries are agriculture, mining, and manufacturing (EVEWiki article Economy of the Amarr Empire) but this doesn't make their society agrarian.

I mean the EU, China, and the USA are the top three producers of wheat (FAO stats) in the world but their societies would certainly not be described as agrarian.

[Pieter Tuulinen]

I'm referring to the fact that Amarrian agriculture is described as actually being less Industrialised than ours is now, in one of the books - that one where the two Gallenteans go to an Amarrian retreat.

[Arkon Sarain]

I'm referring to the fact that Amarrian agriculture is described as actually being less Industrialised than ours is now, in one of the books - that one where the two Gallenteans go to an Amarrian retreat.

I am not sure if I agree with the position that Amarrian agricultural industry is less industrialised than our own modern day one. They are surely less industrialised than the agricultural industry of any other faction in New Eden (EVEWiki article Economy of the Amarr Empire), however this does not necessarily mean that their agricultural processes are less advanced than our own.

I mean an agrarian society is one whose economy is based on producing and maintaining crops and farmland, and stresses the importance of this industry over any other. I don't see evidence for this myself, certainly the Amarr Empire seems to display in every other way the level of development we would expect of an industrialised society (division of labour, technological support for mass production, supporting a large population, etc.).

[Louella Dougans]

I think there are fewer households, if that matters.

that just screws the numbers up more.

For Holders to be a minority as they are portrayed in the PF, with the published numbers, then the only way that there can be 21 Tn slaves, and an average of 2.3 slaves per household, is if the vast majority of slaves do not live in anything that falls under the classification of "household", and are thus not used in the calculation.

Otherwise, every True Amarr lives in a one-person house with 2.3 slaves. Which is bunk.

[Arkon Sarain]

But surely the vast majority of slaves aren't employed in a household, but are rather used in large industries?

I suppose I am not following what exactly is the issue with the numbers, I mean the total fertility rate of a female in 2005-2010 was 2.52 children (UN Data)... this doesn't mean that every female has 2.52 children, it is just a mean number.

Admittedly I am not really that great with maths, so further elucidation as to the numbers would be appreciated - why is 2.3 slaves averaged out across the free population an issue?

[Reinheart Novan]

Both TEA and TBL (which is the one with the Gallentean ladies) plus the a boy & his slaver chron, refer to the wheat being harvested by hand by large communities of slaves. They describe almost self sustaining subsistence communities of slaves. As I recall the scenes in TEA with the elder invasion sweeping down on very agrarian villages making the aerial spray of insorum practical.

While I agree with the slaves per household as a statistic based on the logic slaves/household gives that number in "reality" You would have some holders having thousands on said "wheat planets" and probably a similar situation with planets with good mineral resources having extraction and refining facilities if not right through to manufacturing on the single planet again with large populations of slaves. In more gentile planets I imaging you have the districts such as in "chained to the sky" with districts of slaves.

So in an earth context it may be Europe the US and Australia are all the slaves and the food and industrial production while the lovely Amarrians live in the nice places like, Tasmania & New Zealand.....

[Louella Dougans]

Admittedly I am not really that great with maths, so further elucidation as to the numbers would be appreciated - why is 2.3 slaves averaged out across the free population an issue?

If there's 21 Tn slaves, and the average Holder holds 2.3 slaves, then there are roughly 10 Tn Holders, making Holders the overwhelming majority of the population, without taking into account that a Holder would have a spouse and children.

Which goes against PF, that Holders are a minority.



I started looking at these numbers, because I wanted to try and figure out what proportion of the Amarr population were actually Holders, and what proportion were just Commoners. Previous PF indicates that Holders proper are a small minority of the population, with the vast majority of the population being Commoners.

But the numbers don't support that, not with that average number.

If the average number of slaves owned by a Holder was 23, not 2.3, then.. there'd be 1 Tn Holder households, and allowing for spouse and some children, then the Holder class would be <1/3rd of the Amarr population. Which is far more reasonable, though still a lot higher than PF would otherwise appear to show.

[Samira Kernher]

The average number owned by a Holder would be thousands or hundreds of thousands of slaves. There's nothing about the 2.3 number that could be used to determine the ratio of commoner families to Holder ones.