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That each of the five empires technically has an equal say in all CONCORD matters? Read more in the Chronicle.

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Author Topic: eve online Crossover with ster war  (Read 3819 times)

kul Shaishi

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If Eve has one lesson in it's narrative, it's that if you find any weird ancient space cybercrap, you should stick that shit straight into your brain ASAP, no questions.

Esna Pitoojee

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Re: eve online Crossover with ster war
« Reply #1 on: 26 Feb 2015, 19:01 »

Sufficient Velocity... isn't that the spinoff of spacebattles.com?
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I like the implications of Gallentians being punched in the face by walking up to a Minmatar as they so freely use another person's culture as a fad.

Elmund Egivand

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Re: eve online Crossover with ster war
« Reply #2 on: 02 Mar 2015, 22:07 »

I cannot, for the life of me, imagine things going well for EVE Online fleets in the Star Wars Universe considering the sort of firepower a Star Wars capital ship is capable of putting out and the sheer scale of everything there. EVE Online ships do have the advantage of maneuverability, mobility independent of the Hyperspace network (Cynosural fields), but almost all EVE Online ships are under-gunned for their size.

A Wolf-class Assault Frigate would be an even bigger thorn than the Millennium Falcon can ever manage though.
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Ollie

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eve online Crossover with ster war
« Reply #3 on: 02 Mar 2015, 23:19 »

On the other hand, it wouldn't take 'many Bothans' dying to obtain the plans for the Death Star - just one Spai with a disposable alt and director rights to the Empire.

Emperor Palpatine might control the Force but I get the idea he might be someone that ignores the metagame.
« Last Edit: 02 Mar 2015, 23:20 by Ollie »
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Elmund Egivand

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Re: eve online Crossover with ster war
« Reply #4 on: 03 Mar 2015, 00:52 »

On the other hand, it wouldn't take 'many Bothans' dying to obtain the plans for the Death Star - just one Spai with a disposable alt and director rights to the Empire.

Emperor Palpatine might control the Force but I get the idea he might be someone that ignores the metagame.

Half the Stormtroopers and Imperial Officers are Goon Spais.
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Esna Pitoojee

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Re: eve online Crossover with ster war
« Reply #5 on: 03 Mar 2015, 01:05 »

Oh, in terms of weapons technology there's no real comparison - anti-starfighter weapons in the era of the Galactic Empire have similar yield to the supercapital turrets in EVE. An Imperial-I class Star Destroyer has a peak power output of 7.7x1024 W, compared to 6.5x1011 W on a Revelation.

In terms of mobility there's a weird paradox: Stargates and jump bridges can transit considerably more mass in a single instant, but are also fixed objects with considerable support requirements; in contrast, hyperdrives require individual installation on each vessel, but this also means all ships with one can travel independently.

Because of differing FTL technologies, interdictors would not function against either side.



The one respect in which New Eden truly stands out is its industrial capacity; while the loss of hundreds of capital ships would be a crippling blow the Galactic Empire, it is only a relatively minor setback for a significant capsuleer alliance or one of the Big 4; while only a few tens of vessels in the 10-20 km range were ever produced by the Galactic Empire, titans are practically churned out by the dozen. What is not clear is to what degree the same manufacturing techniques could be applied to Star Wars' technology should the two ever meet.
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I like the implications of Gallentians being punched in the face by walking up to a Minmatar as they so freely use another person's culture as a fad.

Elmund Egivand

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Re: eve online Crossover with ster war
« Reply #6 on: 03 Mar 2015, 01:14 »

Oh, in terms of weapons technology there's no real comparison - anti-starfighter weapons in the era of the Galactic Empire have similar yield to the supercapital turrets in EVE. An Imperial-I class Star Destroyer has a peak power output of 7.7x1024 W, compared to 6.5x1011 W on a Revelation.

In terms of mobility there's a weird paradox: Stargates and jump bridges can transit considerably more mass in a single instant, but are also fixed objects with considerable support requirements; in contrast, hyperdrives require individual installation on each vessel, but this also means all ships with one can travel independently.

Because of differing FTL technologies, interdictors would not function against either side.



The one respect in which New Eden truly stands out is its industrial capacity; while the loss of hundreds of capital ships would be a crippling blow the Galactic Empire, it is only a relatively minor setback for a significant capsuleer alliance or one of the Big 4; while only a few tens of vessels in the 10-20 km range were ever produced by the Galactic Empire, titans are practically churned out by the dozen. What is not clear is to what degree the same manufacturing techniques could be applied to Star Wars' technology should the two ever meet.

So make up for the lack of firepower with sheer weight of numbers?

As for mobility, the understanding on how wormholes work and the exploitation of the same should give New Eden fleets a minor advantage against the Empire. The Galactic Empire does not even know such a thing exist, likely because they had never encountered such a thing. Us in New Eden exploit the damned thing all the damned time. A well-placed wormhole, something covert ops with a Cynosural Field Generator and some world in the Galactic Empire is going to see a supercapital fleet in orbit while the Imperial battle fleet is still having a tea break many light years away.

Sansha's Nation will have a field day with this.
« Last Edit: 03 Mar 2015, 02:22 by Elmund Egivand »
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Lyn Farel

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Re: eve online Crossover with ster war
« Reply #7 on: 03 Mar 2015, 04:14 »

On the numbers of the imperial navy :

"The Empire's standard Sector Group strength was only twenty-four Star Destroyers. They were able to exercise control over an entire system with a single Imperial-class ship. They were able to overwhelm anything up to a Class Four planetary defense with one-third of a Sector Group."

A sector group could be expected to contain at least 2,400 ships, 24 of which were Star Destroyers (Imperial-class Star Destroyers were the norm, but some groups contained older model Star Destroyers), and another 1,600 combat starships.

However, in terms of raw power energy ratio, it should take 10k billions eve capital ships to match a single ISD... You will explode the server node before even fielding the 1/1000th of those on grid.  :P
« Last Edit: 03 Mar 2015, 04:31 by Lyn Farel »
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Esna Pitoojee

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Re: eve online Crossover with ster war
« Reply #8 on: 03 Mar 2015, 17:47 »

So make up for the lack of firepower with sheer weight of numbers?

Because firepower does not work that way.

Here's the comparison I am working with:

The Acclamator-class assault ship carried a main battery rated at 200 gigatons/shot, or around 8.4x1017 Joules. In contrast, a dual giga pulse laser consumes 3.2x1011 Joules per shot. This means that for each shot an Accalmator's main battery fires, a Revelation would have to fire over 2.5 million shots in return.

Let's be generous; maybe the numbers we are seeing don't constitute the Revelation's full power consumption. If we scale up the Revelation's damage output by 100 times, they would still need to fire 26,250 shots to equal a single shot from an Acclamator.

Now keep in mind that not only was the Acclamator designed to absorb tens if not hundreds or thousands of such shots, but by the era described in the OP's link - well into the Galactic Empire's rule - the Acclamator was considered under-powered and unsuitable for fleet engagements. Think, for a moment, about the kind of firepower more 'modern' ships must be both capable of firing and absorbing.

That's the kind of insane numbers we're looking at.

Quote
As for mobility, the understanding on how wormholes work and the exploitation of the same should give New Eden fleets a minor advantage against the Empire. The Galactic Empire does not even know such a thing exist, likely because they had never encountered such a thing. Us in New Eden exploit the damned thing all the damned time. A well-placed wormhole, something covert ops with a Cynosural Field Generator and some world in the Galactic Empire is going to see a supercapital fleet in orbit while the Imperial battle fleet is still having a tea break many light years away.

Sansha's Nation will have a field day with this.

Fair point on the wormholes; although they do appear in Star Wars, they do so only as anomalies created momentarily by strong force powers or extremely powerful explosions.

However, I in turn have to wonder how Wars' Interdictor ships would interact with wormholes. During the Incursion events, significant progress was made in disrupting wormholes by using massed gravitic ECM and graviton smartbombs; Interdictor cruisers, in turn, work by creating a false mass shadow of a planet to disrupt hyperdrive activation.
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I like the implications of Gallentians being punched in the face by walking up to a Minmatar as they so freely use another person's culture as a fad.

Elmund Egivand

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Re: eve online Crossover with ster war
« Reply #9 on: 03 Mar 2015, 19:30 »

So make up for the lack of firepower with sheer weight of numbers?

Because firepower does not work that way.

Here's the comparison I am working with:

The Acclamator-class assault ship carried a main battery rated at 200 gigatons/shot, or around 8.4x1017 Joules. In contrast, a dual giga pulse laser consumes 3.2x1011 Joules per shot. This means that for each shot an Accalmator's main battery fires, a Revelation would have to fire over 2.5 million shots in return.

Let's be generous; maybe the numbers we are seeing don't constitute the Revelation's full power consumption. If we scale up the Revelation's damage output by 100 times, they would still need to fire 26,250 shots to equal a single shot from an Acclamator.

Now keep in mind that not only was the Acclamator designed to absorb tens if not hundreds or thousands of such shots, but by the era described in the OP's link - well into the Galactic Empire's rule - the Acclamator was considered under-powered and unsuitable for fleet engagements. Think, for a moment, about the kind of firepower more 'modern' ships must be both capable of firing and absorbing.

That's the kind of insane numbers we're looking at.

Quote
As for mobility, the understanding on how wormholes work and the exploitation of the same should give New Eden fleets a minor advantage against the Empire. The Galactic Empire does not even know such a thing exist, likely because they had never encountered such a thing. Us in New Eden exploit the damned thing all the damned time. A well-placed wormhole, something covert ops with a Cynosural Field Generator and some world in the Galactic Empire is going to see a supercapital fleet in orbit while the Imperial battle fleet is still having a tea break many light years away.

Sansha's Nation will have a field day with this.

Fair point on the wormholes; although they do appear in Star Wars, they do so only as anomalies created momentarily by strong force powers or extremely powerful explosions.

However, I in turn have to wonder how Wars' Interdictor ships would interact with wormholes. During the Incursion events, significant progress was made in disrupting wormholes by using massed gravitic ECM and graviton smartbombs; Interdictor cruisers, in turn, work by creating a false mass shadow of a planet to disrupt hyperdrive activation.

For point 1, point taken. Eve Online fleets can't quite match up against an Imperial battlefleet in a stand up fight. Sure, Eve Online capsuleer warships will probably start firing long before an Imperial Star Destroyer could tell their gunnery deck where to shoot, but it doesn't matter when the Imperial Star Destroyer could tank those hits and alpha the Revelations one by one off the sky. Then there's the sheer number of turbolasers being fired at the general direction of the capsuleer warships, making maneuverability a moot point. Best thing Eve Online factions can do is launch guerrilla strikes assisted by Cynosural Field and Jump Bridge technology, avoiding Imperial battlegroups, and hoping that the Spais can steal enough tech to reverse-engineer to even out the odds.

We might as well be playing X-COM in a situation like this.

For point 2: Wormholes will probably remain a general pain in the arse for the Galactic Empire considering that they are lacking the technology to probe out wormholes. Especially if the wormhole opens up in the middle of deep space.
« Last Edit: 03 Mar 2015, 19:32 by Elmund Egivand »
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Aria Jenneth

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Re: eve online Crossover with ster war
« Reply #10 on: 03 Mar 2015, 23:06 »

Yes, Star Destroyer stats are nasty. However, let's leave aside the fact that they can't be bothered to put shields on their fighters, and talk ground forces.

This might be the situation where DUST saves the day.

Advantages to New Eden:

* fast-regenerating personal shields

* enemies who can be taken out with bows and arrows, rocks, and logs

* clone armies that actually remember what they learned by dying

* vastly overpowered weaponry. Hand-held blasters are powerful in Star Wars infantry terms, but you can survive an unshielded hit by one without armor if you get just a bit lucky with where it hits you. Plasma assault rifle, not so much. CCP has made it clear that DUST weapons will break your arm and set you on fire if you try to use them without a dropsuit. DUST soldiers do not have a hit point total under their armor, and it's not because they're flimsy; it's because any attack on their usual battlefield that pierces their armor will kill them.

If Leia took a glancing hit from a DUST plasma weapon just like the blaster shot she caught in "Return of the Jedi," it would probably poison her, possibly irradiate her, and flash-ignite both her and Han.

* highly diversified unit loadouts

* personal cloaks

* teleporters (drop uplinks)

* probably a few dozen other things I haven't thought of because it's been a while since I loaded up DUST.

X-Com ... um. Maybe in reverse? I'm seeing a huge initial advantage to the clone troops.

Screw messing with the Imperial fleet; wait until the dropships arrive, then wipe out the ground forces, grab whatever you can before the fleet gets wise and glasses the area, and commence reverse engineering.

Alternatively, hijack their dropships (using gentle methods of persuasion on the Imperial command staff, possibly involving a demonstration of what a charged nova knife does when placed within six inches of an unprotected human face) and invade their capitals. Even Vader might have some trouble when blocking a shot just means the core of the bolt didn't impact; his cape's still going to be on fire.
« Last Edit: 03 Mar 2015, 23:31 by Aria Jenneth »
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Lyn Farel

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Re: eve online Crossover with ster war
« Reply #11 on: 04 Mar 2015, 01:09 »

It is true that eve ships have a clear advantage in terms of sublight speed and weapon ranges, though. Especially range (250 km for eve, against maybe 10-15km for the heaviest turbolasers and bombardment weapons, where missiles have a puny range of like 5-10 km), for speed I don't remember well the speed conversion from MGLT to m.s-1.
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Vikarion

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Re: eve online Crossover with ster war
« Reply #12 on: 04 Mar 2015, 02:42 »

I don't really consider the Star Wars Universe to be really a good one for crossovers, if for no other reason than that less work has gone into making it realistic than into, say, Warhammer 40k. It is fundamentally a universe designed to tell stories for kids, not for geeks. There's nothing wrong with that, it's just that it means that Star Wars tech is all over the place.

For example, turbolasers are said to be enormously powerful, yet their effects range from instant death to "oh, look, we destroyed one cannon on the side of that enemy ship", as in the opening scenes of Revenge of the Sith. The reality is that the super-high numbers for Star Wars weaponry are derived by someone looking for the absolutely most overpowered example they can find (usually in the books), and then extrapolating off of it, usually so they can then go claim that Star Wars is better than Star Trek.

I have no problems with this, per se, but I think that using it as a baseline for any sort of fictional crossover is pretty much a hopeless case. The reality of the matter is that if Star Wars weapons are as powerful as Esna stipulates, then a lot of the movies don't make sense. And if they aren't, a lot of the movies don't make sense. This is because the ammunition Star Wars weapons fire is not plasma or coherent light, but plot necessity. And, incidentally, any time Star Wars weaponry is put on display in a less-plot focused way, such as in a game, it becomes far less lethal than, say, Eve weaponry.

This isn't to say that Eve is entirely coherent, either, and it's pretty clear that the capacitor juice required to fire a weapon has absolutely no bearing on it's yield. Consider the 1000mm (or one meter) railgun. I assume that Eve railguns are vastly more efficient than our own. In this case, I presumed that they are firing at roughly 50% of the speed of light (a very conservative guess, considering that blasters using the same ammunition fire at something like 99% of the speed of light, and do not do twice the damage of a same-tier railgun). Even assuming that a blaster fires only half the mass of a railgun shot, the 50% guess based on damage ratios is fairly reasonable.

Moreover, let's assume that we're firing a simple, pure iron slug - fortunately one of the actual ammunition options. Let us further assume a fairly short, roughly cylindrical shape, with a total mass of one cubic meter of iron. This is also an extremely conservative assumption, given that it is a one meter diameter railgun, and projectiles are usually longer than wide. But I'm keeping this as conservative as possible.

So, given that we have 7,840 kilograms of iron heading downrange at about 149,896,229 meters per second, we can expect that it will impact with roughly 8.8078 x 1019 joules.

Oh, and I forgot. These are dual 1000mm railguns. So, make that 1.7616 x 1020 joules.

And a Dread, last I checked, carries three batteries. That would be 5.2847 x 1020 joules. This is orders of magnitude above Esna's figures.

I'm not saying that this is ironclad, at all. But it has about as much plausibility as any of the Star Wars calculations. It's certainly reasonable, considering what we know about New Eden technology in terms of advances, and in terms of damage ratios to blasters. And it is very conservative about the mass being thrown at the enemy - I mean, I could have used the anti-matter rounds instead. Exactly how much energy do you think that might contain, if only, say, 10 percent of a 1 meter cube were anti-matter?

This would also explain how, in a rather infamous Chronicle (EDIT: Xenocracy), a capsuleer could threaten to wipe out a city with a couple shots from a comparatively puny 425mm railgun. It also explains how, when Eve fleets get it into their mind to destroy a planet, in the canon, they usually manage a reasonable thorough job.

So it might be wise not to toss New Eden tech into the trash.
« Last Edit: 04 Mar 2015, 02:56 by Vikarion »
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Lyn Farel

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Re: eve online Crossover with ster war
« Reply #13 on: 04 Mar 2015, 03:12 »

Yeah, while I don't necessarily subscribe to the SW being designed for kids idea, I agree that whatever setting you take, be it SW, Eve, W40k or whatever, those are by definition settings using as much space magic as space science so... vOv

The thing that always buggered me with SW numbers is the comparative effects of said destructive weapons compared to the power behind it. When each shot blows up, deflected by a shield or not, it should create explosions the size of several nukes... And on the ground ? Are blasters that puny or do they carry a similar payload ? What if a single starfighter shoots on the ground and not a deflector shield, assuming that shields actually suck up most of the energy ?
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Vikarion

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Re: eve online Crossover with ster war
« Reply #14 on: 04 Mar 2015, 03:16 »

Yeah, while I don't necessarily subscribe to the SW being designed for kids idea

Well, I base that largely on some comments by Lucas.
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