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[Evi Polevhia]

Why should your character fly with someone who was kidnapping millions of your citizens yesterday, when said person is still active in character and shows absolutely zero change from their previous viewpoints or any actions and desire to compensate for what they've done?

All four empires, which includes Amarr/Minmatar and Caldari/Gallente, did team up together to fight Nation. As well as all four empires make up CONCORD which is an agreement and cooperation to a unified system of relative law and order.

But yet we have other people here who cannot possibly ever, ever stand Pirates who've decided to work with non Pirates on unified goals.

So what, your Empires can be shades of grey but Pirate RPers MUST be black and white?

Related, why do people insist that someone CANNOT POSSIBLY be a Pirate supporter yet simultaneously not be all for murdering everyone 110% of the time? Being on opposing sides of a war doesn't mean I must froth at the mouth and be unable to have goals, plans, and temporary alliances.

[Silas Vitalia]

I don't think this ends up being a constructive or fair argument.


The game mechanics are allowing a thing to happen that wouldn't happen if more attention were paid to the game mechanics and story of the game.

This isn't a new phenomenon with EVE.


Some people put their OOC fun first and foremost and then wrap a looser skin of IC justification around their actions after the fact (we are all guilty of some of this, very much myself included).

This, naturally, rustles the jimmies of those who think it should be the other way around. We've all got different thresholds for this sort of shit.

Let's not all be mean to Samira though I think she does have valid points here.  If I'm an Amarr loyalist doing my utmost to fight for the Empress and a bunch of Sansha et all are let into the militia it is pretty ridiculous IC.  It's hard not to be defeatist about the whole damn thing and the whole overall PF if it gets rubbed in your face?  From Samira's point of view the other people get to have all the fun, do whatever they want, and to her not have a good IC justification.  Why bother trying to work to maintain IC credibility when all of these other people appear to give 0 fucks about it?  I totally get it.

 

[kalaratiri]

Pirates in the militia is mostly due to how lowsec works, not FW. It is a tactical necessity to shoot first.

[Jennifer Starfall]

Gaven, I think we're agreeing in principle, even if we're not agreeing in execution.

The problem I see, and why I think it's in YDIW territory, is if a player says "I'm flying with these people because they are my friends," and people just keep harassing them over it. Tibs wants to fly with his friends. Fine. Let him. PYRE RPs, but I would say not to the extent of PIE. And that's fine.

And here's the problem with the state of RP: it's in danger of devolving into One True Wayism. If hardcore RPers demand that everyone wanting to RP with them be hardcore RPers, they're going to lose people. They're going to be labelled as elitist jerks. And the community will shrink or fragment.

And don't misunderstand me, I'm not saying you're doing it wrong, either. I'm saying that the attitudes that are being expressed here come across as intolerant.

[Samira Kernher]

Why should your character fly with someone who was kidnapping millions of your citizens yesterday, when said person is still active in character and shows absolutely zero change from their previous viewpoints or any actions and desire to compensate for what they've done?

All four empires, which includes Amarr/Minmatar and Caldari/Gallente, did team up together to fight Nation. As well as all four empires make up CONCORD which is an agreement and cooperation to a unified system of relative law and order.

But yet we have other people here who cannot possibly ever, ever stand Pirates who've decided to work with non Pirates on unified goals.

So what, your Empires can be shades of grey but Pirate RPers MUST be black and white?

Related, why do people insist that someone CANNOT POSSIBLY be a Pirate supporter yet simultaneously not be all for murdering everyone 110% of the time? Being on opposing sides of a war doesn't mean I must froth at the mouth and be unable to have goals, plans, and temporary alliances.

When they teamed up, they had already jointly created CONCORD as a way to unite and move past the previous conflicts. They weren't at war at the time.

When war was a factor, that is, during the Nation Resurgence, the Empire and Republic did briefly team up but went right back to shooting each other the moment the main threat was off the field.

Honestly, the RP at Naup's tower last night was probably the closest to how things should be. Everyone working against a common threat, but all jockeying to get positions on one another in preparation for a fire fight during or after it went down. That was fun.

Let's not all be mean to Samira though I think she does have valid points here.  If I'm an Amarr loyalist doing my utmost to fight for the Empress and a bunch of Sansha et all are let into the militia it is pretty ridiculous IC.  It's hard not to be defeatist about the whole damn thing and the whole overall PF if it gets rubbed in your face?  From Samira's point of view the other people get to have all the fun, do whatever they want, and to her not have a good IC justification.  Why bother trying to work to maintain IC credibility when all of these other people appear to give 0 fucks about it?  I totally get it.

For what it's worth I'd like to again clarify that my big issue is with the blooder corps and not Pyre. Pyre, for everything that it is, does play the morally dubious PMC element. It does keep a lid on the worst issues and, in spite of its associations, focuses on the fighting. It even helps against the blooders. It has been fun to RP with, partially due to its controversial nature, and as said the events of last night were very fun.

So again, the main issue for me is the blooder corps that are part of 24IC while making overt blood sacrifices and claiming they are loyalists.

[Silas Vitalia]

Gaven, I think we're agreeing in principle, even if we're not agreeing in execution.

The problem I see, and why I think it's in YDIW territory, is if a player says "I'm flying with these people because they are my friends," and people just keep harassing them over it. Tibs wants to fly with his friends. Fine. Let him. PYRE RPs, but I would say not to the extent of PIE. And that's fine.

And here's the problem with the state of RP: it's in danger of devolving into One True Wayism. If hardcore RPers demand that everyone wanting to RP with them be hardcore RPers, they're going to lose people. They're going to be labelled as elitist jerks. And the community will shrink or fragment.

And don't misunderstand me, I'm not saying you're doing it wrong, either. I'm saying that the attitudes that are being expressed here come across as intolerant.

It's not YDIW, it's attempting to call out illogical IC behavior.

If Imperial Loyalist Rodj Blake shows up to a Blood Raider party and cuts some people and participates in an Orgy and then keeps doing the loyalist thing, people are justified to call that out as wildly inconsistent.  Rodj will either adapt the character to the actions that took place or *shrug* and say he likes those people OOC and wanted to have fun.

Some things when going un-acknowledged end up peeing in other people's community RP pool is all.  This bothers some more than others.

So I'm not calling out anyone for anything, but trying to explain what I think is some of the loyalist views here:   If hated faction X is suddenly party of loyalist militia Y, it rustles Jimmies.  Hated faction X players are under no obligation to explain their behavior, they are having OOC fun doing their thang.  Loyalist Players Y also have a good excuse for WTF? reactions, etc.

[Karmilla Strife]

Who are other players to decide that IC justification for doing things with my character isn't good enough?

[Gaven Lok ri]

Pirates in the militia is mostly due to how lowsec works, not FW. It is a tactical necessity to shoot first.

Nah, its FW. From day one we had open blood raiders and self-identified generic pirates in the Amarr Militia. This isn't something that happened in the pre-militia FW test runs, there the blood raider players stayed separate and maintained their own agenda (i.e. shot both sides).

PIE and 1PG got in a bit of a fight over it with PIE choosing to accept that we couldn't police the militia and 1PG refusing to fly with the riff raff.

[The Rook]

EVE is a game of freelance capsuleers fighting for causes: Money, loyalities, thrill, camaraderie, grudges, fame and infamy.

As a group of players we are enjoying ourselves in the little gameplay niche that is lowsec/FW for a combination of both legacy and practical reasons (content generation). We also have a sizeable contingent of long-term roleplayers stemming from different angles that share the same or similar gameplay interests and OOC sympathies. By capitalizing on the freelancer/merc angle presented to us by the game we, as a group, have found a way to merge different IC allegiances under one coherent banner in an attempt to strike a compromise between IC and OOC interests.

In the end, as a corporation, our main goal is to provide a platform for our players to engage in the game and have fun with friends. The secondary goal, IC, is to forge a heterogenous group of professionals into an effective combat group: a PMC looking for guns for hire. The moral implications of using these often questionable individuals for just causes can be explored by everyone according to their own moral compass.

[kalaratiri]

Pirates in the militia is mostly due to how lowsec works, not FW. It is a tactical necessity to shoot first.

Nah, its FW. From day one we had open blood raiders and self-identified generic pirates in the Amarr Militia. This isn't something that happened in the pre-militia FW test runs, there the blood raider players stayed separate and maintained their own agenda (i.e. shot both sides).

PIE and 1PG got in a bit of a fight over it with PIE choosing to accept that we couldn't police the militia and 1PG refusing to fly with the riff raff.

I meant pirates in general, not just RP groups.

[Esna Pitoojee]

All four empires, which includes Amarr/Minmatar and Caldari/Gallente, did team up together to fight Nation. As well as all four empires make up CONCORD which is an agreement and cooperation to a unified system of relative law and order.

Because Nation represented a significant issue to all four empires, placing them far above the threat of any of the individual quibbles between the empires at that point. To the Minmatar, the rising Nation represented a more immediate problem given that the Amarr had been temporarily forced onto their back foot; to the Gallente, Nation was far more of an assault on their notions of personal freedom than the colonies they'd recently ended a painful, grinding war of questionable morality with.

Today, however, not only does Nation continue to wage an ongoing war against the 4 empires and capsuleers both, but there is no existential threat on the scale of what Nation was during the first war to even make a desire for an alliance in the first place. I would actually say there is more grounds for an alliance between militias against Nation - something that happened repeatedly during the Incursion live events - on account of militias being bound by the limitations of the Yulai Emergency Militia War Powers Act whereas Nation is an outside actor and unbound by CONCORD or the EMWPA.

But yet we have other people here who cannot possibly ever, ever stand Pirates who've decided to work with non Pirates on unified goals.

Well, yes. Some of us play characters with moral scales which demand they do not work with entities that are actively undermining the faction they are loyal to unless a much larger issue exists that they can agree on. Said issue does not exist at this time. I would also note this is not the first time we've had this issue; a few years back we had a Blood Raider corp join Amarr Militia and claim this meant the Amarr 'accepted' them even though they were blooders.

So what, your Empires can be shades of grey but Pirate RPers MUST be black and white?

Not at all! The problem here is that there hasn't been any white to offset the black; to anyone looking in, it seems like it's just the same Sansha flying under a different name.

Related, why do people insist that someone CANNOT POSSIBLY be a Pirate supporter yet simultaneously not be all for murdering everyone 110% of the time? Being on opposing sides of a war doesn't mean I must froth at the mouth and be unable to have goals, plans, and temporary alliances.

I don't think anyone is saying this.

[Silas Vitalia]

Who are other players to decide that IC justification for doing things with my character isn't good enough?

That's not what I'm saying at all.

What I'm saying is when the OOC player says "I just want to fly with these people OOC and have fun" then that is what it is, and people will respond as they feel accordingly.

[Anskek]

Who are other players to decide that IC justification for doing things with my character isn't good enough?

That's not what I'm saying at all.

What I'm saying is when the OOC player says "I just want to fly with these people OOC and have fun" then that is what it is, and people will respond as they feel accordingly.

As they have and apparently will always respond. The Butterfly Effect is real.

[Mizhara]

Who are other players to decide that IC justification for doing things with my character isn't good enough?

Who are you to decide what other people should take seriously? No one around here is going to try and force anything on anyone else (admittedly largely because that's mechanically impossible), but we certainly are free to see if words match action and if they don't, we can make our own decisions regarding the veracity of a character. Make your decisions and do what you want. No one can force anything else on you, but we can have our own views on the matter.

There's little to get out of this topic anymore. I'm pretty sure Silas has nailed repeatedly why FW is currently absolute horseshit and neither makes sense, nor any good things for the RP community overall.

[Gaven Lok ri]

Gaven, I think we're agreeing in principle, even if we're not agreeing in execution.

The problem I see, and why I think it's in YDIW territory, is if a player says "I'm flying with these people because they are my friends," and people just keep harassing them over it. Tibs wants to fly with his friends. Fine. Let him. PYRE RPs, but I would say not to the extent of PIE. And that's fine.

And here's the problem with the state of RP: it's in danger of devolving into One True Wayism. If hardcore RPers demand that everyone wanting to RP with them be hardcore RPers, they're going to lose people. They're going to be labelled as elitist jerks. And the community will shrink or fragment.

And don't misunderstand me, I'm not saying you're doing it wrong, either. I'm saying that the attitudes that are being expressed here come across as intolerant.

I don't actually think we are really disagreeing at all. I am mostly arguing that the judging should be done IC.

The only time that I think it becomes a problem OOC is when someone who is playing a character that is ignoring these sorts tries to OOCly argue that their character isn't doing the actions that the character clearly is doing in game. ICly, the character can have all the cognitive dissonance that the player wants it to and I have no problem with them OOC. Gaven the character will think they are full of shit, but then Gaven has quite a few blind spots, himself.