Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Samira Kernher]

Never said anything about distinguishing one's self mundanely but not religiously. Only that distinguishing is not a binary thing in which 'religiously distinguished = Chosen'.

Anyway, I'm pulling out of this topic. These are discussions better had in-character and I was dumb for letting myself get caught up in debating here.

[Rin Kaelestria]

Just seems to me that CCP didn't know how to write a religious faith based society and so chose to dumb it down with racism and slavery. 

Either way, after all this talk about the source book, makes me regret asking my husband to get it for my birthday. Because, I know he did (told me after I mentioned not wanting it anymore), and don't feel up to the hassle to return it.     Ah well, here's to being hopeful the art is good.

[Nicoletta Mithra]

The art is great, Rin.

As to debating in Character: I don't see how one can debate in Character whether EVE: Source breaks with prior PF or not. >,> Also, I don't see how one could distinguish oneself in a way that qualifies one religiously to lead others, that is not being chosen by God to lead.

[Graelyn]

Watch meh! 

[Lunarisse Aspenstar]

Just noticed this threadnaught. 

I also concur with what Rin said which was my impression, sadly enough, as well that whoever wrote it "didn't know how to write a religious faith based society and so chose to dumb it down with racism and slavery". 

Consequently, my comment elsewhere is better put here:

Quote from: Merdaneth on Today at 02:48 AM

You shouldn't care so much about canonicity.

Or rather: you should care as much about canonicity as you do in real life.

What is canon in real life? Wikipedia, what you read in your history books, what your priest tells you, what your parents told you, what you see on YouTube?

Just apply the same principle to EVE, and you'll have a lot less to worry about. EVE is not a religious order after all, its a virtual world.

*****

Also my attitude about Eve source.  Just like I tell my kids when reading history books or news articles, consider the author and the point of view/agenda they may be trying to push.  To the extent this is put to Luna IC, she may view this as being the product of Gallente/Minmatar academics.

[Lyn Farel]

What Rin said.

[V. Gesakaarin]

Well we all roleplay capsuleers in the end that enjoy the particular freedoms of being particularly divorced from the conformity pressures of any society; their cultural norms; legal and moral consequences; or indeed pretty much any consequences.

So I guess in the end if people prefer to ignore aspects of PF to make it more suitable for themselves and their characters to behave in the ways they wish then it doesn't really matter, insofar as the only people doing it right are the trillions of citizens living in New Eden and not the comparative handful of capsuleers who lead very different sorts of lives.

Although sometimes I do chuckle at the detection of those who seem to confuse "RP" with "PR" and argue vehemently, and complain bitterly, at any aspect of PF lore that contradicts their desires to placate their own personal views and bias on, "How things should be" so that it meshes with their own standards and beliefs.

[Publius Valerius]

Well we all roleplay capsuleers in the end that enjoy the particular freedoms of being particularly divorced from the conformity pressures of any society; their cultural norms; legal and moral consequences; or indeed pretty much any consequences.

So I guess in the end if people prefer to ignore aspects of PF to make it more suitable for themselves and their characters to behave in the ways they wish then it doesn't really matter, insofar as the only people doing it right are the trillions of citizens living in New Eden and not the comparative handful of capsuleers who lead very different sorts of lives.

Although sometimes I do chuckle at the detection of those who seem to confuse "RP" with "PR" and argue vehemently, and complain bitterly, at any aspect of PF lore that contradicts their desires to placate their own personal views and bias on, "How things should be" so that it meshes with their own standards and beliefs.

Define "standards and beliefs". So that we dont just talk in the abstract. As well as could you give an example for "their desires to placate their own personal views and bias".... You can even take me as example, I dont mind. 

Because I hoped, I always make clear on my critique what the point is. If someone does not understand this *Publius looks at H. Caul and Eterne*... then sorry it is not my fault. I can just again and again point out un-logical errors... and give examples to my points... if the the other side dont understand, or read it; I dont see it as my fault actually (as I always point out, that people can ask.. asking isnt nazi. ). The only fault which I can see is, that I saw EVE as SciFi universe and not as space opera/sci fi fantasy. But this point have I made more then ones clear, that I know that is my fault. 

So self-reflection is a skill, which I hoped some people on the other side would also have. But I dont will start with some of the comments I got (like: english-bachlor unlike you or I define it that way... crap). True be told there are many errors and mind boggling idiocracies in the lore. So I understand when people get worked up. And I also understand it when people call it what it is. True be told if something is un-logical, or breaks own lore, or laws, it will always get some head scratching. And with always, I mean ALWAYS. Example: My critique on the "Kingdom interdependent topic" does not go away by stupid onliners, or ignoring. Or in other word, sending me a comment/answer with more or less "go fuck yourself" (just in nicer words), those maybe "fix" the problem with me (as I answer in the same tone back.. even if I get banned). BUT I DOESNT FIX THE PROBLEM; or in other words. Most likely in few years CCP will find another guy/costumer which just asks the same questions.**

As for me as I told often. I have just to change my few on EVE and see it more through space opera eyes. As for that the Source Book is actually really good. I think it fits the tone of a larger then life story better.... By the way. I will give the next days a longer feedback then my current: "I love the picture"... Which lets me sound like a superficial dick***....







________
** True be told, Im to much of a capitalist, that I let such thing slide. As I think, a individual "go fuck yourself just in nicer words" for every costumer (1) on any problem (2), will cost in the end more time and MONEY as just to fix things in the first place.... But as I said it is just me.
***Im a superficial dick, but I dont need to look like one.

[Publius Valerius]

So now the feedback.....

I actually like the book (it has some flaws... as mention before). but overall it has answer really some questions. So I will start first with the new information:

- General Information about hard SciFi. Stargates, Dust Soldiers, etc... Thumbs up. I actually even thing a two volume Source would be possible (as mention before). One hard SciFi... with goes from Drones, over human-androids, drugs, to Ship information (I personally liked the old ship vids wich had come with the last book.). Like Volume I "General Hard fiction and Ships" Volume II "Factions and Politics"... But of course as it now is also good. So thumbs up.

- Amarr Empire. As mention before I had some other Ideas.. in the topic education, arts, paradigm etc... But I actually dont mind the Amarr Chapter. Alot of information where already there and just got sum up (as of some of the changes-as I mention below***-I would word it maybe softer. But it in the end is is just taste. Maybe it was a try to make something like the old sith empire (SWTOR)? I dont know?). General well written chapter, thumbs up.

- I always had problems with what is what in the Mandate. Like what is the RotAM, or the Ammatar Governor, Ammatar Consulate Governor*, or the Ammatar Consulate High Commissioner*. I always asked myself how those all fit together and what would be Yonis title... RotAM? As for now the book as clear this point. He is the Ammatar Governor. I actually think this will help to make things more clear... So thumbs up.

- The Minmatar Republic. I hoped for more information. How the new Republic looks like. But we have some more information "Responsibility and Powers". So thumbs up. The tribal chief list (page97). I think we will see more of them, or I hope so. All power to normadic-space-vikings-tribes, as I think it will help more to define what a matari is (not just in the opposition to the Amarr).

- Minor things... I like the Minmatar chart with the crime rates. As I always thought the minmatar had a nice outlaw thing going.* I would even love more stuff. Still... thumbs up

- "Growing Up {{Factionname}}" chapters. I like them. They give a nice inside what is going own.

- Like the story parts of each faction..... Ehm minor nix-pick. The Caldari had "just" the Arcurio information, which is from the size like Dominion, or Caille, or Spark, but doesnt give personal inside. It maybe a irony of history/writing, that the cold-blue-metal faction gets a cold description about living on the ground, without the personal/human/storytelling of living on the ground.

- Caldari break down... I hoped for more information, but generally I like it. Some new tiny information about the eight. Overall thumbs up.

- Inside the corporate jungle (page126). Love it. As for me a great read. Thumbs up.

- Like the Jove chapter. Truthfully I havent read much about them. So I can judge the content, I thinks there are better experts on this topic. But as for the information given it looked nice. I also liked the blue-grey-ish skinned pair.


Let downs... Actually just one thingy.. the minor factions... The Thukker arent mention, as well as the Khanid. I thing that part overall felt to short. I would love to read more of the "one region nations"... aka Intaki Syndicate, Ammatar Mandate, Khanid Kingdom and Thukker Tribe.


Overall a nice buy, I dont mind the money spend. The book looks great. And yes I said it again. Sorry Im superficial. When it comes to the art, it is really well done and fit to the mood of the text. I would just hoped for more^^.....


_____
***As for paradigm-shifts (the topic pages before. Visual arts, education... role of bloodlines ...Damius II=Damius III? etc...). I actually dont mind them. I would reword some stuff and make it less absolute, alittle softer; but in the end it is just my taste. Example: "With the aid of the Khanid Kingdom, she captured and executed Karsoth," Would I change a little so that it doesnt sound like she captured him. But as I said VERY minor things. As well as I would word some stuff softer, which is even more minor then minor. As it maybe comes with the trade off that it is less dystopian?

[Andreus Ixiris]

Did they give a less dumb explanation for how stargates and warp drives work?

[Katrina Oniseki]

Did they give a less dumb explanation for how stargates and warp drives work?

They gave one for Stargates. Didn't see one for warp drives yet.

[Lyn Farel]

Although sometimes I do chuckle at the detection of those who seem to confuse "RP" with "PR" and argue vehemently, and complain bitterly, at any aspect of PF lore that contradicts their desires to placate their own personal views and bias on, "How things should be" so that it meshes with their own standards and beliefs.

I often chuckle at the detection of those who seem to confuse criticism with whimsical claims. vOv

Well, if they finally decided to take the first opinion of the two main ones that float over the web - "The Amarr are retarded space medievals" and "The Amarr are a modern alien society based on faith" - that's their choice eventually. I will certainly not complain for once they make things pretty clear on the matter.

[Publius Valerius]

Did they give a less dumb explanation for how stargates and warp drives work?

Ehm I just write it down (I hope you dont mind typos)... as I will make it fast.O7

"It is undoubted that a race capable of interstellar travel roamed New Eden thousands of years ago. A number of ancient star gates and acceleration gates have been discovered in various systems across the cluster, all of which have a peculiar factor in common carbon dating*** shows that these gates were all constructed within a time frame of approximately 150 years. It is believed that these individuals were those who initially ventured forth through the EVE Gate to colonize the cluster.

The system of New Eden remains an enigma; as does that which lies on the opposite side of the EVE Gate. Scientists across the cluster speculate on the origins of mankind and wonder where our knowledge of star gate construction and faster-than-light travel originated. A star gate is an immensely complex mesh of astrophysics, science, and mathematics that to most people seems an impenetrable wall of equations and jargon.

In layman´s terms, a star gate generates an artificial wormhole, through which a vessel passes to its destination. These gates are constructed to exploit areas of natural gravitational resonance, or harmony, either on the edges of solar system or in the areas where a sufficiently large or dense celestial body creates a relative equilibrium between itself and the star it orbits.****

While this resonance is not required to be absolute (such as, for example, when two celestrial bodies cancel each other´s gravitational effect completely-the ideal conditions for a star gate), gravitational distortion most remain below an acceptable threshold for star gate´s subsystems to be able to function normally. Once that condition is satisfied, a stable link can be created between the source and the destination nodes. These nodes are the gates themselves. They operate in pairs, their interstellar positioning arrays and mainframes linked directly via the fluid router system for instantaneous point-to-point communication.

When a vessel requests jump clearance, the source node transmits a basic carrier signal that includes data on the class of the vessel, its mass, its current status, and its CISC (CONCORD Identification Serial Code) to the destination nodes, which the confirms receipt of the data. This entire process is automated, consisting of direct communication between the mainframes of the paired star gate."

The gates then confirm alignment to each other before activating magnetic fields. Once this process is confirmed by both the source and the destination nodes, they simultaneously fire a focused beam of gravitons towards each other, folding space-time consistent with Weyl tensor dynamics, which creates a temporal singularity-or more simply, a tear in space-time-at both the source and the destination nodes. The two nodes monitor these singularities at intervals of one picosecond, ensuring they are stable before the source gate begins to stream negatively charged gravitons toward the destination, which in turn acts as a receiver, positively charged.


This is the first third. I write the rest  when I have more time...

_______
***carbon dating doesnt work that way.... We would need to know the 14C is/was constant as it is on earth atmosphere the case.. to make rückschlüsse/conclusion back. Even more that the organic stuff on, or in the gates would be most likely taken form other/various lactation (planets with differnent 14C numbers)... meaning he would just measure a knowing disintegrations from/towards a earth level. As we cant see how much/on what level the organic thing has absorbed as it lived (aka is former place. Like which planet). I know what I wrote sounds weird... I can make an example if needed....

[V. Gesakaarin]

Re: Publius

While there may at times be something lost in translation with your thoughts, I do tend to think they come from an analysis from some sort of objective viewpoint and the construction of thoughts and theory that tries to be internally consistent.

What I'm talking about is say, about 2-3 years ago I put forward the idea that the Caldari might be a homophobic society or at the very least disagree with homosexuality on these forums given some hints from mission texts and other PF. At the time a lot of people tried to argue, there's no way the Caldari could be homophobic, for no other reason that I could detect than a desire to defend their public space lesbianism and that it might portray the Caldari as, "Bad" by modern standards.

Well it turns out the Caldari do in fact disagree with homosexuality, and I was correct, because I prefer to use the PF to reach a conclusion instead of reaching a conclusion first and trying to make the PF fit it.

I mean the same thing I can see with the Amarr. Whenever I see people trying to twist the PF to ameliorate the consequences of slavery and conquest inherent in the Amarr faith I see it as nothing more than people trying to make it palatable to a modern audience in some kind of attempt at meta-PR. Because once slavery, conquest, and the racial intolerence/prejudice is removed from the Amarr you might as well be roleplaying a character that prescribes to a Christian ethic that just so happens to fly spaceships.

Nothing wrong with that really, since we're all playing capsuleers who can think and do what they want, but at least call a spade a spade with what you're trying to do.

[Publius Valerius]

Re: Publius

While there may at times be something lost in translation with your thoughts, I do tend to think they come from an analysis from some sort of objective viewpoint and the construction of thoughts and theory that tries to be internally consistent.

What I'm talking about is say, about 2-3 years ago I put forward the idea that the Caldari might be a homophobic society or at the very least disagree with homosexuality on these forums given some hints from mission texts and other PF. At the time a lot of people tried to argue, there's no way the Caldari could be homophobic, for no other reason that I could detect than a desire to defend their public space lesbianism and that it might portray the Caldari as, "Bad" by modern standards.

Well it turns out the Caldari do in fact disagree with homosexuality, and I was correct, because I prefer to use the PF to reach a conclusion instead of reaching a conclusion first and trying to make the PF fit it.

I mean the same thing I can see with the Amarr. Whenever I see people trying to twist the PF to ameliorate the consequences of slavery and conquest inherent in the Amarr faith I see it as nothing more than people trying to make it palatable to a modern audience in some kind of attempt at meta-PR. Because once slavery, conquest, and the racial intolerence/prejudice is removed from the Amarr you might as well be roleplaying a character that prescribes to a Christian ethic that just so happens to fly spaceships.

Nothing wrong with that really, since we're all playing capsuleers who can think and do what they want, but at least call a spade a spade with what you're trying to do.

I know my english isnt the best, so I dont mind questions or discussions to fix miss understandings.





As for the general topic:
Funny that everybody thinks I try to remove racism form the Amarr. As I said on the topic before... I just had another paradigm in mind. As well as Lyn already mention. My stuff doesnt mean that their are not racist or that my Char isnt racist... As I also told in the thread later... that I know "racist asshole because of religion" is the same as "racist asshole because of supremacy", or as I word it "racist action out of reason x, is the same as racist action out reason y. Both are just the same, aka racist action." Or as Lyn implied/said it nicely. As for me, Im even worse then the most. As I mention before I have just few slaves and just rent-seek those of my family, which makes me even worse. I dont use them, because of a goal... profit or salvation as their arent my. I just use them for my utility.

So my critique as I said before isnt that I dont like stuff. My critque is that stuff isnt logical, or breaks laws, or lore. The best example is really the Khanid topic.** As well as that I dont just state about theories, I state about laws.


I would even so far go to say, that what you imply towards me or Mithra is actually the case with the other side. As I really cant explain the past emphasis on the NA white supremacy movement. I think all the this is more the case as I mention pages before on this thread... of "I just know one version of racism therefore the Amarr have to be that way." I think Arista Shahni and Samira Kernher are prime examples of this, and their anti towards a asian majority thing.** As I mention before, amarrians wouldnt fear a majority-minority change as those modern racist movements. They even dont need to make other white. As they dont need to form a voter coalition. So If I say religion is the legitimation for slavery do I exclude racism? No. I would even say, as many other to that is just another form of racism.*** My own char is prime example for this*... I would even say I the worst racist there is...even more then every cotton slaver or Walt Disney. As I do all the things I do without seeing me, or acting chosen/supreme/pure/enlighten. Which means that my char doesnt sees himself as neither supreme through bloodline (Kernher) or supreme through devotion/service (Mithra). Which makes him a mess up asshole which acts without a own legitimation, besides the notion: "I CAN. THATS WHY I DO RACIST ACTIONS" 

So long story short. I would actually take your point and say, that some people just want THEIR version of racism, which they are know and comfortable with. But even in our world exist more racism then the NA white supremacy movement. But they somehow just want one, or know one, or like one version. Or lets say to make things less harsh and personal, TonyG wants them to be that way... that their is just one version of racism.


__
** I wouldnt even narrow RP. As every faction in EVE the mode is hold by white (see source).
*** I would even say, as many other to that is just another form of racism. My own char is prime example for this... I would even say I the worst racist there is...even more then every cotton slaver or Walt Disney. As I do just things because of my inferiority and that I dont have a responsibility towards then (nor profit or salvation).


Edit: Generally in RL I had so much do with "I cant be wrong people" in the past, that I actually dont mind CCPs stupidity. As it is fun for me to shit on those people. I can just facepalm about the Khanid topic. I still cant believe, that I had to explain an wannabe historian (Caul) who Thucydides was and the melian dialogue, as well as a wannabe writer (Eterne) not to break the own lore. So my opinion wasnt high in the first place, so in this light have people to read my feedback. After all its a game book, and they are close to Uwe Boll movies most of the time.